Two rules/etiquette things that came up today in our round.

[Naterater]

Originally Posted by zeg

First one has been covered correctly---you were out of turn---but unless your opponent says something right there, there's no penalty or repercussion.  You have absolutely no reason to feel guilty or bad about that.  Playing it out of turn in that situation, particularly in bad weather, often makes more sense than wasting time fiddling with the pin.  Plus, with ready golf being the rule at so many courses, assuming that you'll play things out as quickly as possible is sensible.  If your group (with you included) feel it's more important to the match to play strokes in order, then someone should say something---reasonable golfers can disagree on this point.

For the second, there is no standard rule there.  The only official rule is that you can *always* LC&P; a plugged ball in the fairway or other closely mown areas, which is probably why your opponent believed the rule to be what he thought it was.  There's a specimen local rule that extends this to all areas through the green, but still only for plugged balls.  Winter rules / LC&P; for a ball that's not embedded is really outside the ordinary rules (but grudgingly accepted as necessary by the USGA), so it's something that needs to be agreed upon by the group or stated clearly by the committee---there really is no official standard for this.

Still, unless you were trying to deceive your opponents and hide your acts, if they didn't say something the first time you did this, you don't owe them anything beyond making sure to clarify the rules before the next time you go 'round.  It's as much their fault as yours.

This is why, IMO, it's so important to stick to THE rules, and why the rules lawyers out there are a valuable asset.  When local rules and shortcuts abound, disagreements and bad feelings are sure to accompany them.

Thanks for the clarification Zeg, and everyone who posted. I'm sure all will be clarified before the next time we tee it up.

[zeg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamo

That's replace as close as possible, correct?

Actually, let me correct myself---the rule for an embedded ball is lift, clean, and *drop*, not place.  So the correct procedure is to drop it as close as possible to where it was embedded.  Also, in the interest of completeness, this only applies if a ball is embedded in its own pitch mark.  If it rolls into an old hole or pitch mark, there is no relief and you play it as it lies.

Also, my memory was also faulty about the degree to which the USGA begrudges winter rules.  They do provide a specimen local rule for when conditions warrant it (to be determined by the committee):

From Appendix I:

A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green [or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole] may be lifted without penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within [specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.] of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

This agrees with what I said, though---the local rule needs to specify the extent that LC&P; is allowed.  The default they suggest is through the green, though, which would allow it in the rough as well as the fairway, just not in a hazard or putting green.

[montru]

Some friends of mine that come over from the UK like to play LCP, I however do not and never have played that rule, I always play the ball as it lies, so, when they ask if we are playing LCP I always insist it only in the fairway, (they don't hit many fairways lol) I'm giving most of them 8-10 shots and still beat them lol.

[Harmonious]

Mud on the ball is a part of the game, in my opinion.  There are rules to deal with the other conditions (embedded ball, casual water), but to automatically lift and clean your ball if it just has mud on it seems to go against the spirit of the rules.  The fairways here in Florida can be muddy at times, especially in the Summer, but unless the ball is embedded, there's no relief.

Seems that would have eliminated any confusion in the OP's case.

[2bGood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamo

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg

For the second, there is no standard rule there.  The only official rule is that you can *always* LC&P; a plugged ball in the fairway or other closely mown areas, which is probably why your opponent believed the rule to be what he thought it was.

That's replace as close as possible, correct?

With LCP the rule can call for all sorts of distances. Last year Ryuji Imada took 26 penalty strokes in one round when he thought they were playing LCP with a club length, but it was only 6" http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=5748783

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamo

That's replace as close as possible, correct?

Actually, let me correct myself---the rule for an embedded ball is lift, clean, and *drop*, not place.  So the correct procedure is to drop it as close as possible to where it was embedded.  Also, in the interest of completeness, this only applies if a ball is embedded in its own pitch mark.  If it rolls into an old hole or pitch mark, there is no relief and you play it as it lies.

Also, my memory was also faulty about the degree to which the USGA begrudges winter rules.  They do provide a specimen local rule for when conditions warrant it (to be determined by the committee):

From Appendix I:

A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green [or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole] may be lifted without penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within [specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.] of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

This agrees with what I said, though---the local rule needs to specify the extent that LC&P; is allowed.  The default they suggest is through the green, though, which would allow it in the rough as well as the fairway, just not in a hazard or putting green.

That it the local rule tells all, so you have to check at the club house before you go out

[ghalfaire]

For whatever it is worth, there is not a penalty for playing out of turn in stroke (metal?) play.  But in match it is the opponent's option to either let the stroke stand or have you do it over, in turn.

I have played with a lots of foursomes that for sake of speed of play have everyone on the green before anyone putts or just play "ready golf" everywhere (without endangering anyone).   But when a little (and especially when a lot) of money is on the line it is a very good idea to have the rules understood before the first tee ball is hit.