Need help with ruling. team tournament.

[Todd Ruggere]

My question is simple. You are in a foresome and you are playing 1 best ball. Its a 300 yard par 4. I drive it to the fringe. IS IT legal to have everyone else hit up and chip up and leave there balls around the hole and not mark them to help me? This was a debate at my old club and we could never find a rule. Thanks for input

[iacas]

Read rule 22.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-22/

22-1. Ball Assisting Play

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may:

a. Lift the ball if it is his ball, or
b. Have any other ball lifted.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Todd Ruggere

My question is simple. You are in a foresome and you are playing 1 best ball. Its a 300 yard par 4. I drive it to the fringe. IS IT legal to have everyone else hit up and chip up and leave there balls around the hole and not mark them to help me?

This was a debate at my old club and we could never find a rule.

Thanks for input

No.  This is a format which the rules don't anticipate, but there are mentions of this situation in two on two fourball play where a player may not use his partner's ball to assist him in making his stroke.  A player may not play a shot in an unusual direction in an attempt to assist his partner either.

[TheGeekGolfer]

Originally Posted by iacas

Read rule 22.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-22/

22-1. Ball Assisting Play

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may:

a. Lift the ball if it is his ball, or

b. Have any other ball lifted.

I believe the key word here is 'may'.  I can't ask someone 'not to lift it' , but if the other player doesn't lift it because he doesn't think it will assist, then no harm.  Also, the decisions defines it better...

22/6 Competitor Requests That Ball in Position to Assist Him Not Be Lifted

Q. In stroke play, B's ball lies just off the putting green. A's ball lies near the hole in a position to serve as a backstop for B's ball. B requests A not to lift his ball. Is such a request proper?

A. No. If A and B agree not to lift a ball that might assist B, both players are disqualified under Rule 22-1 .

Although, since this ruling has to do with competitors and you are actually teammates , then I don't believe it applies.  If you were required to have the other balls marked, what is the distance away where you don't have to have them marked?  Just off the fringe?  10 yds off the green?  20 yds?  The fact that they have each hit their 2nd shot and you haven't, says to me that they don't have to mark their balls.  You're just going to hit your 2nd shot, to have them go up and mark their balls would might slow down play.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by TheGeekGolfer

I believe the key word here is 'may'.  I can't ask someone 'not to lift it', but if the other player doesn't lift it because he doesn't think it will assist, then no harm.  Also, the decisions defines it better...

22/6 Competitor Requests That Ball in Position to Assist Him Not Be Lifted

Q. In stroke play, B's ball lies just off the putting green. A's ball lies near the hole in a position to serve as a backstop for B's ball. B requests A not to lift his ball. Is such a request proper?

A. No. If A and B agree not to lift a ball that might assist B, both players are disqualified under Rule 22-1.

Although, since this ruling has to do with competitors and you are actually teammates, then I don't believe it applies.  If you were required to have the other balls marked, what is the distance away where you don't have to have them marked?  Just off the fringe?  10 yds off the green?  20 yds?  The fact that they have each hit their 2nd shot and you haven't, says to me that they don't have to mark their balls.  You're just going to hit your 2nd shot, to have them go up and mark their balls would might slow down play.

In this format they are all partners, and as such they cannot use a partner's ball to assist them in their play.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by TheGeekGolfer

I believe the key word here is 'may'.  I can't ask someone 'not to lift it', but if the other player doesn't lift it because he doesn't think it will assist, then no harm.  Also, the decisions defines it better...

22/6 Competitor Requests That Ball in Position to Assist Him Not Be Lifted

Q. In stroke play, B's ball lies just off the putting green. A's ball lies near the hole in a position to serve as a backstop for B's ball. B requests A not to lift his ball. Is such a request proper?

A. No. If A and B agree not to lift a ball that might assist B, both players are disqualified under Rule 22-1.

When a player (A) asks another player's (B) ball to be lifted due to potential assistance of any other player, B has no option but to lift his ball. It is not up to him to decide whether there will be assistance or not. Although, I do not believe there would be any dispute about such issue as lifting his ball would not do B any harm, only the trouble of bending down, marking the ball and lifting it.

[zeg]

This is, as Fourputt mentioned, not a "real" format so there's no "real" answer from the Rules of Golf, but it's close enough to other formats that you can reasonably extend the Rules.  One of the Decisions for four-ball that Fourputt referred to above is, I believe, this one:

Decision 30-3f/6:

Q. In a four-ball competition, a player purposely putts away from the hole to a position slightly farther from the hole than the spot where his partner's ball lies and on the same line to the hole as his partner's ball. The player then putts towards the hole, and the roll of his ball is helpful to his partner in determining how much his putt will break, etc. Is such procedure contrary to the Rules?

A. Such procedure is contrary to the spirit of the game. In match play, in equity (Rule 1-4) , the player should be disqualified for the hole and, since his action assisted his partner's play, the partner should incur the same penalty — Rule 30-3f .

It's a different specific act, but the same basic principle applies: playing in an usual manner in order to gain an advantage is a violation of the spirit of the game, so equity should be similarly applied.  Thus, if you play out of customary order so the other balls will be on the green, you're very clearly in violation.  If you play in the correct order but have a discussion about whether the other balls are beneficial, I'd imagine you're probably on the wrong side of the rules unless, in good faith, you decide that there's no advantage being given.

So, e.g., if you're 200 yards off the green, I don't think there's a problem.  It'd be way outside normal practice to request a mark from there.  In your situation, from the fringe, you are probably better off marking any ball that could reasonably be used to your advantage (to avoid appearance of wrongdoing) and you certainly cannot coordinate the order of play to gain an advantage.  My personal feeling would be that you're only exposing yourself to rules trouble if there's some break from your usual routine, or if it's really obvious that you're gaining an advantage (like having a couple balls forming a backstop behind the hole).

[Fourputt]

The following is the most closely applicable decision.  In a four man team event they must be self policed.  There has to be some sense of honorable play since there is no oversight by another competitor.  The spirit of the game must be maintained.

30-3f/11 Request to Lift Ball That Might Assist Partner Not Honored

Q. A and B are playing C and D in a four-ball match. B's ball is near the hole in a position to serve as a backstop for A's ball. C requests B to lift his ball. B does not comply and A putts. What is the ruling?

A. B is disqualified for the hole for failing to comply with Rule 22-1. If A's ball strikes B's ball, A would also be disqualified from the hole since B's infringement assisted A – Rule 30-3f. If the balls do not collide, A is not penalized.

The same ruling should apply even if the balls do not collide, but B's ball was left in place because it was in a position to indicate the line for A to putt on.

The only modifier in this is that many such "tournaments" are in the nature of being mixed outings (such as a company tournament) with a wide range of skills, and in many cases include "rules" which have little or nothing to do with the game of golf.

[TheGeekGolfer]

Originally Posted by zeg

This is, as Fourputt mentioned, not a "real" format so there's no "real" answer from the Rules of Golf, but it's close enough to other formats that you can reasonably extend the Rules.  One of the Decisions for four-ball that Fourputt referred to above is, I believe, this one:

Decision 30-3f/6:

Q. In a four-ball competition, a player purposely putts away from the hole to a position slightly farther from the hole than the spot where his partner's ball lies and on the same line to the hole as his partner's ball. The player then putts towards the hole, and the roll of his ball is helpful to his partner in determining how much his putt will break, etc. Is such procedure contrary to the Rules?

A. Such procedure is contrary to the spirit of the game. In match play, in equity (Rule 1-4), the player should be disqualified for the hole and, since his action assisted his partner's play, the partner should incur the same penalty — Rule 30-3f.

It's a different specific act, but the same basic principle applies: playing in an usual manner in order to gain an advantage is a violation of the spirit of the game, so equity should be similarly applied.  Thus, if you play out of customary order so the other balls will be on the green, you're very clearly in violation.  If you play in the correct order but have a discussion about whether the other balls are beneficial, I'd imagine you're probably on the wrong side of the rules unless, in good faith, you decide that there's no advantage being given.

So, e.g., if you're 200 yards off the green, I don't think there's a problem.  It'd be way outside normal practice to request a mark from there.  In your situation, from the fringe, you are probably better off marking any ball that could reasonably be used to your advantage (to avoid appearance of wrongdoing) and you certainly cannot coordinate the order of play to gain an advantage.  My personal feeling would be that you're only exposing yourself to rules trouble if there's some break from your usual routine, or if it's really obvious that you're gaining an advantage (like having a couple balls forming a backstop behind the hole).

I think this is a good explanation and I agree, you shouldn't do it as it would not be in the spirit of the game.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The following is the most closely applicable decision.  In a four man team event they must be self policed.  There has to be some sense of honorable play since there is no oversight by another competitor.  The spirit of the game must be maintained.

The same ruling should apply even if the balls do not collide, but B's ball was left in place because it was in a position to indicate the line for A to putt on.

The only modifier in this is that many such "tournaments" are in the nature of being mixed outings (such as a company tournament) with a wide range of skills, and in many cases include "rules" which have little or nothing to do with the game of golf.

Very closely analogous decision.  I think you nail the key, though, which is the importance of honor here.  According to that decision (standing alone), it's unclear whether there'd have been any penalty to A had he not had his request to B denied.  I think there should be, based on the equity argument, but it seems a bit difficult to codify without considering the intent/awareness of the players because it doesn't seem fair (or practical) to penalize a side because of an unlikely bounce.

In addition to the example of a long approach shot, one could imagine a shanked chip being saved by a bounce off a partner's nearby ball that was nowhere near the intended line of play.  It wouldn't seem equitable to call a penalty in that situation either.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zeg

Very closely analogous decision.  I think you nail the key, though, which is the importance of honor here.  According to that decision (standing alone), it's unclear whether there'd have been any penalty to A had he not had his request to B denied.  I think there should be, based on the equity argument, but it seems a bit difficult to codify without considering the intent/awareness of the players because it doesn't seem fair (or practical) to penalize a side because of an unlikely bounce.

In addition to the example of a long approach shot, one could imagine a shanked chip being saved by a bounce off a partner's nearby ball that was nowhere near the intended line of play.  It wouldn't seem equitable to call a penalty in that situation either.

One further comment to previous good comments: A player is not required to ask any ball lifted that might assist him, this is up to his fellow-competitors to do. However, normal routine is to mark all balls that are on the green so no dispute should be aroused. When there are partners in one flight it certainly is a question of the spirit of golf for them to treat each other as fellow-competitors as far as assisting or interfering ball is concerned.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by zeg

Very closely analogous decision.  I think you nail the key, though, which is the importance of honor here.  According to that decision (standing alone), it's unclear whether there'd have been any penalty to A had he not had his request to B denied.  I think there should be, based on the equity argument, but it seems a bit difficult to codify without considering the intent/awareness of the players because it doesn't seem fair (or practical) to penalize a side because of an unlikely bounce.

In addition to the example of a long approach shot, one could imagine a shanked chip being saved by a bounce off a partner's nearby ball that was nowhere near the intended line of play.  It wouldn't seem equitable to call a penalty in that situation either.

The general intent of the decision is to prevent using your partner's ball when it's obvious that it's in a position to assist you.  I can't imagine anyone deliberately aiming at a ball from well off the green in the hopes that he would get just the right deflection.   The probability of success on such a shot would approach zero.