Shoulders & Hips

[MiniBlueDragon]

Hi folks.

I've always performed my swing with the idea that more rotation is better. More hips, more shoulders, more power.

I've always rotated my hips and shoulders back at the same time (time it takes for a full hip turn and full shoulder turn at the same time is the equal), rotating my hips as far as they can go whilst allowing my shoulders to also rotate as far as possible without losing sight of the ball.

In Five Lessons (pg 72-73) Mr Hogan shows a smooth transition from flat hips to 45 degree hips at the same time as a shoulder rotation of flat to 90 degrees, however there's no mention of a limit to the rotation, only the comment, "Maximum tension in the muscles between the hips and shoulders produces maximum speed" which reads to me like I should be pushing both as far as possible and then using forward-rotating hips to create maximum tension on the downswing.

My shoulders seem to be able to rotate approx 60 degrees with flat hips (butt against a wall to make sure) and I've often rotated my upper torso beyond 90 degrees during a backswing.

The text I read earlier was on http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/pivot.htm :

The amount that one needs to rotate the hips depend on one's degree of body flexibility. A golfer who has an inflexible torso will have to turn his hips a greater amount in order to allow the shoulders to rotate 90 degrees around the upper spine. One should limit the hip turn to the smallest amount that allows a 90 degree shoulder rotation. An over-rotation of the hips can predispose a golfer to over-swinging, which is a fault that plagues Phil Mickelson's driver swing.

This clarifies my mis-interpetation of Five Lessons so I thought I'd share for anyone else who may not have correctly understood.

It also raises a question.

For those people who have a great flexibility between hips and shoulders, how will deliberately limiting hip rotation affect their swing? Will it add power? Lose power? Be about the same?

[phillyk]

I think of myself having great flexibility.  For example, i can pretty easily stand up (6'1") and put my palms on the ground without bending my knees.  My key to power comes from the torque build up as the hips move first on the downswing, keeping my hands in the same place at the top of the swing.  I think this is the tension you mention between hips and shoulders.  As the hips turn first, the arms follow later, almost snapping, at impact.  So, I think limiting that hip turn will reduce power, but will add more consistency and accuracy as there is less left to right movement of the body.  For me, I've used this hip turn for a number of years and have made it consistent enough to score well.

[saevel25]

Depends really... some people like bubba watson use alot of height and hip rotation, while others brace and use there core muscles a ton. So it depends on your body build up. I am 6'1" as well, but not as flexible in the hamstrings, but i got good core strength, so i like to brace myself. I honestly think about limiting my hip rotation because i overdo it, i hit it a long way.

[MiniBlueDragon]

See this is what I can't get my brain around...

Another Five Lessons thought idea is having your left hip attached to elastic so that as you get to the top of the backswing it's stretched taught. Then you let it go, it yanks your hip back and starts the downswing. A similar thought is used in one of Shawn Clements' videos where he uses a cloth in the back right pocket to "wipe" a mirror behind him and then the left hip rotates to meet the mirror to initiate the downswing.

With both of those thoughts, the left hip needs to be turned as much as possible against the legs to create the tension to spring back, initiating the downswing. By not rotating my hips far enough to begin with I won't build up that tension. That means I have a few choices:

1. Over-rotate my hips forward to create the torque to generate a faster downswing and end up 'blocking' myself as Mr Woods does.
2. Ignore the 90 degree idea and rotate back to where I get the torque needed but then realise I have more chance of screwing the shot up than I would with a shorter swing.
3. Move more towards a 'hitting' rather than 'swinging' stroke.
4. Accept that I'll never be a long hitter.

Bloody golf... Who needs it?

Oh and my body makeup is 5'7" tall, very broad shoulders, fairly strong and balancing the thin line between 'athletic' and 'need to lose a couple of lbs' heh

[MiniBlueDragon]

I may also have figured out a number 5 for the above list...

I realise that it's more comfortable, more natural and the normally taught S&T; way to have both feet flared slightly at address (front flared a little more) but I think by turning my right foot inward to 90 degrees from the target I'm creating a limit to how far my hips can turn back. That in turn should create more hip-shoulder torque. To the Bat Mobile! Wait, it's 11pm.

[iacas]

Why do you want to limit your hip turn?

You can create power by separating them in the downswing but separating them or "coiling against" anything on the backswing is generally not thought of well these days.

Hogan turned his hips a good 45 degrees or so, and his shoulders about 100.

[Zeph]

I agree with Erik. Limiting the hip turn is more like creating potential trouble. You'll lose speed and it'll be harder to get the sequencing right.

Guess where Bubba Watson gets his power from:

10. Turn Your Hips Back, Too

I've heard guys talk about making a big shoulder turn on the backswing but a modest hip turn. I say that's bogus. The farther I turn my hips, the farther I can turn my shoulders, and the farther I can hit the ball. Don't restrict your backswing in any way. Turn everything, so you have as much windup as you possibly can. Extra motion means a longer swing, more clubhead speed and big distance.

I don't think you should turn them as far as physically possible, but around 90º shoulder turn and 45º hip turn will work. Make sure you straighten the back knee in the same process to avoid turning too flat.

The body is not a coil, despite popular belief. If you twist and turn it as far as you can, and relax, nothing will spring back and generate a lot of power all by itself. The muscles are stretched, but you have to use them to generate power. A coil stores up power because the metal wants to get back to it's original form, our body is a lot more flexible. Speed is created from turning hips and shoulders, lead with the hips on the downswing, shoulders follow, arms follow, hands follow, club follow. You can probably hit it far by "coiling" too, but I believe you will gain more from turning the hips, plus it'll make it easier to hit the ball since the hips can turn 45º before they get back to square. Limiting the hips also limit your shoulder turn, which is another loss of power. Look at any sport or physical endeavour, I doubt anybody looking to create power will limit parts of their body from turning.

[MiniBlueDragon]

I was looking at limiting my hips solely so that the connection between hips and shoulders was at it's tighten at the top of the back swing. The way my mind sees the connection is like it's starting a petrol mower with a rip cord; if I have a tight rip cord I get a powerful, strong pulling motion (from my hips) which pulls the starter (shoulders) better than if there's slack in the rip cord. By limiting my hip turn I increase the hip/shoulder resistance and it feels more powerful than if I turn my hips to max and shoulders to 90 where they 'should' stop according to various sources. Also by having a 90 limit, I'd be preventing over-swinging which occasionally plagues my swing, no?

[iacas]

Again, I really don't think you want to limit the backswing much except to the point at which your arms start to flex too much and your shoulders go past about 90 degrees. If you're super flexible and you think 30/90 is still "loose" then great - simply start sending the hips forward on the downswing like Rickie Fowler, but don't limit the hip turn to less than 30 degrees.