My Swing (Gerald)

[Gerald]

I have noticed some loss in my iron distances over the last about 3 months, it isn't much but there is ...... I can hit a great shot, have the feel I really have hit the ball flush and still see it landing 15 yds short of where it landed a few months ago.

Not that it worries me much, bc I just take a longer iron these days ......, but it puzzles me a bit.

Last weekend I played a competiton match and my 10 yrs older oponent hit his balls 10-15 yds further with a very identical set up, my swingspeed is maybe a little faster (not measured).

He said I wasn't compressing the ball as well as he did.

When I have to hit 165 yds into a green I used to pick a 7i (last year, MP-57, S-300) and now I need a 6i or even a 5i (AP2, S-300) ...... again not a big deal, but some of my playing partners use a 8i to cover the same distance.

Last year I mostly played with either the Bridstone e-5 or Titleist NXT Tour and today I use the 2011 Pro V1x mostly...... maybe the Pro V1 fits my swingspeed better (95-100 Mph driver), but I don't like the "added" sidespin on longer shots.

Am I loosing distance because I compress the Pro V1x enough or would it be a swing issue ?

At the driving range (with driving range balls) I notice some balls flying at least 15-20 longer, when I really focus on attacking the ball, in other words trapping the ball (compressing it more ?) ........ these balls go off low and climb more, while the about standard balls have a higher launch and land shorter.

Worked on a better swing at the start of the season with a highly qaulified pro to go from straight - baby fade (my natural swing) to straight - baby push draw, but as I somehow can't force myself to consistently hit the baby push draw ....... I am now back at where I started from and I am not any longer fighting my natural swing.

What I am working on mostly ....... chipping and putting ....... I miss some GIR's and getting Up & Down is vital for my scoring....... it is fun to hit a chip within 3-6 ft. and make the following putt and I am good at it (about 50%), but I feel I really need to work on my ballstriking aswell now.

At any range there are 250 pro's .... ready to tell me what I am doing wrong.

Anyone has some tips or drills for covering/compressing  the ball better (irons) ?

Will I be better of changing to a softer ball ?

[Gerald]

Last year I restarted playing golf and also joined this forum, I bought the S&T book and tried S&T at the range for about 5000 balls and at the end, while keeping pushing shots to the right I just gave up, kept some of the good things in my swing (I guess), but went back to my natural fade and went from hc. 45 to 5.8 in a few months.

Last few months I am struggling a bit, is it between the ears or is it in the swing, but I am desperate enough to give S&T another go.

There are ZERO S&T teachers overhere, but I don't mind getting instruction from a book, but last time I tried S&T maybe I was trying to use the whole "picture" at once......

Any advise to what part of the S&T swing to focus most on to start with......

[Zeph]

You'll have to be prepared to do some work yourself if you're going with S&T without an instructor. Taking online lessons from Evolvr or someone is something I can recommend.

Where you start depends where you are, post a video from DTL and one from FO.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Last weekend I played a competiton match and my 10 yrs older oponent hit his balls 10-15 yds further with a very identical set up, my swingspeed is maybe a little faster (not measured).

Identical clubs too? Some people will always hit it longer than you, but if you lost a lot of distance in three months, there must be a reason for it.

Originally Posted by Gerald

Last year I mostly played with either the Bridstone e-5 or Titleist NXT Tour and today I use the 2011 Pro V1x mostly...... maybe the Pro V1 fits my swingspeed better (95-100 Mph driver), but I don't like the "added" sidespin on longer shots.

Am I loosing distance because I compress the Pro V1x enough or would it be a swing issue ?

The E5 might be longer than the V1x, it's not unlikely. You don't need a certain swing speed to compress high end balls. More speed always equal more distance, and some balls are longer than other. You could do a test with the E5 and V1x to see how far you hit them.

Originally Posted by Gerald

At the driving range (with driving range balls) I notice some balls flying at least 15-20 longer, when I really focus on attacking the ball, in other words trapping the ball (compressing it more ?) ........ these balls go off low and climb more, while the about standard balls have a higher launch and land shorter.

Hands more in front of the ball results in lower launch angle, more backspin and usually more distance. If you can get that shot grooved, it'll work.

Originally Posted by Gerald

Worked on a better swing at the start of the season with a highly qaulified pro to go from straight - baby fade (my natural swing) to straight - baby push draw, but as I somehow can't force myself to consistently hit the baby push draw ....... I am now back at where I started from and I am not any longer fighting my natural swing.

A "natural swing" is nothing but a swing you've been using for a long time. Nobody is born to hit a fade and some to hit a draw. Doesn't mean you can't change it, but it will take some work.

Originally Posted by Gerald

Anyone has some tips or drills for covering/compressing  the ball better (irons) ?

A video would be a good start. :-)

[iacas]

Sorry this is so short, but I wanted to respond...

1. You may not have the same swing speed as him.
2. You may be putting more sidespin on the ball, you may have less shaft lean than your opponent, or both. Compression is simply a measure of how square the path of the club is to the face angle at impact. Forward shaft lean (with the same downward path) reduces this number ("spin loft") and side to side motion (in to out or out to in) reduces it too because the lines aren't in the same plane. In other words, more shaft lean increases compression (you can get too much but I don't think you're there) and so does a path more square to the face angle.
3. A firmer ball will always have more ball speed than a softer ball. What it may give up is spin - a softer ball will tend to spin more and thus have more lift to help it stay in the air a bit more.
4. Play the ball you like around the greens. Adapt to the distance you get with that ball with the driver and irons (unless it's way out of whack, in which case you might have to compromise slightly on the short game stuff... but no balls should really be "way out of whack" these days).

I recommend you get fit. Or get a lesson from a great instructor. Or take six or eight sleeves of different balls out there and see which ones you like, starting from the green and working backwards.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Last year I restarted playing golf and also joined this forum, I bought the S&T book and tried S&T at the range for about 5000 balls and at the end, while keeping pushing shots to the right I just gave up, kept some of the good things in my swing (I guess), but went back to my natural fade and went from hc. 45 to 5.8 in a few months.

How far right? A "pro level" push-draw only starts with a face angle two degrees right of the target and a path about four degrees right of the target. If you open the face to four degrees with the same path, hello straight push.

Originally Posted by Gerald

Any advise to what part of the S&T swing to focus most on to start with......

This isn't meant to sound contrite, and I think Mike and Andy could have done a better job of pointing this out more in the book, but the correct answer is "the piece you need the most right now."

If you're having trouble drawing the ball, there are parts that deal with that. If you're having trouble with contact, weight forward, handle forward parts will help you the most (i.e. not translating off the ball, maintaining a centered shoulder turn, sliding the hips forward, retaining the flying wedge).

There's a list of fault trees in the back of the book. Read through those, figure out which is your biggest fault right now, and work through the branch to figure out what "piece" you need to fix that ONE thing.

Attempting a whole-sale change, especially on your own, is often a recipe not necessarily for disaster but for a hard time.

[Harmonious]

I think you are at the crossroads.  At a 6 handicap, you obviously can get the ball around the course very well with your current swing. The question is whether you want to change in the attempt to get better, with no guarantee that you won't, in fact, get worse.

If you have made an honest attempt at S&T, and 5000 range balls sounds like you have, I would say you should either look elsewhere for swing ideas, or just accept that your swing is what it is, and work on your short game to drop the next couple of strokes off your handicap.

As one who's swing has gone through many gyrations over the years, I have finally settled on a couple of swing thoughts that (for me) always seem to bring me back whenever my golf game goes astray. Suggestion: Get a copy of Ben Hogan's "Five Lessons".  You really don't need anything else, IMO.

[iacas]

Harmonious, you mean well, but c'mon... I thought you were tired of the S&T threads, but you always seem to pop up in them. Truth is there's likely not one single piece to S&T with which you'd disagree, particularly when I'm telling the guy to take the one piece he needs and not do a wholesale change-over.

5000 range balls doesn't mean he was doing things properly. It means he was committed to "something" but if there's one constant in our lessons it's how extreme the proper change actually feels. We rearely see someone applying enough of a change (though sometimes we see someone applying too much!) on their own.

Doing something better should make you better almost immediately. We've never given a lesson to someone only to have them get worse . Even if you improve only 5% you're 5% better at that one piece. The only tricky lessons we have are where a student makes two compensations that offset each other, and we have to work on two things at the same time. That's rare (though as a better player Gerald may be doing such a thing). There's some trick in properly ranking the priorities, but again students should get better, not worse.

Hogan's book is great (lots of S&T pieces in there, a ton, really) but it's not the only book anyone needs. IIRC, John Jacobs says that book created generations of slicers and helped to fill his lesson books. Gerald, if you can film your swing, do so and post it here. Or send it to me privately.

S&T has a name and is thus an easy target. But it's not a "do it all or don't bother doing it at all" swing. There are several components, and every good player does the majority of them. They may not do them to a "t," but they do them and they do them to a large degree. S&T is simply a loose collection of components combined with a system of measuring and categorizing those components along with what and how they control various aspects of the swing.

Hogan's swing, btw? One of the closest to the most center-line interpretations of the "model" S&T swing you'll find.

Again, I know you mean well, and your feedback is always appreciated, but I'm not convinced that you truly understand S&T or how it's best applied or used. The PGA Tour is moving towards steeper shoulders with a more centered pivot. Just like Hogan had. Just like S&T has.

I'm sorry if this comes off in any way poorly. I hope it does not, and that's not the intent. I'm late getting out the door here so this was written in a rush... Hope it comes across as it was intended, and that intent is again not "bad" in any way.

Take care and whether you "stick with it" or not, Gerald, may you find consistently pure contact in the very near future.

P.S. Merged two threads and renamed. Gerald, this is now your "My Swing" thread. If you have any specific questions for me I'll gladly answer them, but otherwise feel free to listen to Harmonious or anyone else who you'd like to listen to and who wants to help you. Harmonious has good advice... I'm just not sure what he dislikes so much about S&T.; :-)

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

If you have made an honest attempt at S&T, and 5000 range balls sounds like you have, I would say you should either look elsewhere for swing ideas, or just accept that your swing is what it is, and work on your short game to drop the next couple of strokes off your handicap.

You can hit 100 000 balls without it making a difference if you are not working on the right things or making the right moves. If his long game is letting him down, I doubt he can improve his short game and putting enough to get rid of 6 strokes (if scratch is his goal).

Originally Posted by Harmonious

As one who's swing has gone through many gyrations over the years, I have finally settled on a couple of swing thoughts that (for me) always seem to bring me back whenever my golf game goes astray. Suggestion: Get a copy of Ben Hogan's "Five Lessons".  You really don't need anything else, IMO.

Why does there exist hundreds of instructional books if we only needed Five Lessons? If it works for you, great, but that doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I think you are at the crossroads.  At a 6 handicap, you obviously can get the ball around the course very well with your current swing. The question is whether you want to change in the attempt to get better, with no guarantee that you won't, in fact, get worse.

I don't think he would have made this thread and the others he's made without having a wish to get better. With proper instruction and work, I doubt he'll get worse.

[Harmonious]

This thread is about Gerald's question regarding whether he should or should not try to incorporate S&T, after becoming frustrated with his lack of progress.  My advice was only in regard to his giving up or trying something else.  If he had said he was a Jim Hardy (or even a Ben Hogan) advocate and couldn't make any progress, I would have made the same comment.

For all of us, 36 handicap down to a plus, there is a decision to we make at some point.  How much are we willing to do in order to get better, and at what point do we realize we have probably arrived at the point where endless searching becomes fruitless. About 5 years ago, I was where Gerald is now, hovering around a 5 handicap or so.  With every issue of Golf Magazine, I looked for the one tip that would bring me complete and utter bliss and happiness on the golf course.  And for the most part, whenever I tried the latest tip, my game got worse.  After much frustration, I finally settled into the idea that my game was, with some minor tweaking, good enough. My swing won't ever be confused with Ernie Els, but it is good enough for me.

I make no comments regarding the validity of S&T theories, as my only knowledge of them is here. I am not critical of them in any way.

Gerald:  Good luck which ever way you choose to go.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

About 5 years ago, I was where Gerald is now . . .

You were obsessed with distance and changing out iron sets and drivers every couple months too?

[Gerald]

Thanks for all comments sofar .......

@Harmonious ..... I see what you mean and there have been times I have thought ..... what the ...... who cares, just enjoy the game, I make many pars and my scrambling quality (about 50% saves a lot of pars for me) and maybe I can get that to 60-65% if I practice it even more and work on strategy, but what I need most is a better ballstriking to increase GIR and putt for birdie chances instead for saving par. I have the little Hogan book and I like many parts of it.

@Sean ..... Yep I have been on the tackle boat a lot, but like most of us...... there comes a time to realize its not the arrows, but the indian ........ maybe my current driver is a difficult one (909 D3) but I can imagine it still is a lot easier than the Persimmon drivers I used to hit 250+ with over 30 yrs ago. It is not distance I am looking for the most, as with all the drivers I had and still have, I have hit 300+ drives (so it is not the tools, but repeating these 300+ ones is the deal) and in irons I am looking for minor dispersion .......

@Zeph .... My oponent used a similar set, but I guess he had more forward lean, played better with the irons, but I was driving a lot better, so in the end results were quite similar ...... still if I could combine his iron play to my driving I would play near scratch ....... scratch is a nice goal for a 50+ guy like me, but I would be pleased with anything below 3.0 ...... and it is only going to happen if I can improve my ballstriking ....... it is good to know what to work on.

@Iacas ...... thanks for joining in and your comments. How far right ..... good point ...... I somehow seem to have trouble closing the face and I have been on a monitor a few times ....... inside-out path 2-3 degrees mostly, but like you said face 2-3 or even 4 degrees open (I can hit a push slice aswell ;-) )

Today I worked on chipping & putting, which I do on a nearly daily basis for about 2-3 hours last few weeks ...... becoming quite lethal at this.

But also worked on S&T with the mid and long irons ...... I focussed on weight forward AND forward lean only ...... it is hard to tell if launch angle improved a lot, but I was amazed how well and easy I hit the 4i and 3i so well today, with only such a small change. 8i went about 130 meter (143 yds) quite consistently with little dispersion. Next 4 days I play a local 72 holes tournament, so less time to make some videos, but next week I might find the time for putting some swing video's online...... never done that ...... so I must figure it out first (using a Olympus digital photo camera)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

My advice was only in regard to his giving up or trying something else.

Fair enough.

I also don't think that Gerald is at the point where he's "okay with" his game. And I hope never to be at that point. But I enjoy the process of improving.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by iacas

I also don't think that Gerald is at the point where he's "okay with" his game. And I hope never to be at that point. But I enjoy the process of improving.

That is the idea ..... I could be satisfied with playing around 78-82 most of the time, which is not too bad for a recreational golfer, but even when playing such a round of mostly 9-10 pars, 1-2 birdies, couple of bogeys (and of course sometimes a double or worse) ........ I realize that if I would be able to minimize the few poor shots, I would be able to play a plus handicap and it of course happens that I play a bunch of pars/birdies in a row and people playing with think they are out on the course with a pro, but they can also see me struggling missing a few pars in a row and there is so little in between.....

So I would like to improve and if S&T is a method (or a toolkit) that makes my swing more predictable, I might cut out the few poor shots ...... S&T is merely a name for me, it could just aswell been Leadbetter, Jamie, Hogan, whatever ........ I have the time to pratcice on a daily base (or I make the time) and I enjoy to practice, but I also have a bit of talent ....... and maybe my biggest handicap is a mental one .......

Further my swing isn't as consistent as I would like, sometimes, too less turn, too less weight shift, sometimes a slice that comes out of the blue and my partner telling me I was on the backfoot, etc........ I have hit slices on short pitches that looked like a shank (no it wasn't a shank, but somehow topped on the underside of the toe coming from the outside in with an open face ...... horrible, making a double instead of a par)

So working on method and putting some time in it ...... is enjoyable and never a waste of time ...... at least that is how I look at it.

I have no problem going the the practice area for half a day instead of playing 18 holes, we also have a 9 hole short course Par 3 (75 - 135 yds) at our club, with small greens, which is a great way to practice scoring...... I can be hours on, playing with 5 balls etc. I mostly play below par and force my self to use only one club (which I vary from round to round), forcing me to hit a wide range of different shots with the same iron (like high, mid, low, lots of backspin or less backspin etc....)

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Gerald

I have the time to pratcice on a daily base (or I make the time) and I enjoy to practice, but I also have a bit of talent ....... and maybe my biggest handicap is a mental one .......

Further my swing isn't as consistent as I would like, sometimes, too less turn, too less weight shift, sometimes a slice that comes out of the blue and my partner telling me I was on the backfoot, etc........ I have hit slices on short pitches that looked like a shank (no it wasn't a shank, but somehow topped on the underside of the toe coming from the outside in with an open face ...... horrible, making a double instead of a par)

So working on method and putting some time in it ...... is enjoyable and never a waste of time ...... at least that is how I look at it.

How comfortable are you with going low?  In other words, when you start stringing together the pars and birdies, do you tense up because you feel you are in unfamiliar territory, thus bringing out some bad swings?  If you are comfortable in that 78-82 range, maybe when your round shows signs of a really great score, you start to become defensive in order to protect your score, rather than continue to play the game that got you there.

Golf gives you far too much time to think about all the things that can go wrong.

[Gerald]

Well for it is sooooo easy to ruin a good score with one bad hole, but you are right if you hit great drives hole day it makes no sense going for an iron of the last tees to protect a low round ....... At my handicap ....... it is still vital for a good score to have a good average driving....... a good drive ...... easy par and a birdie chance ....... a bad drive and a double is around the corner.......

Yesterday I had a very bad round (87) as I had been practicing some swing changes for a few days only and had to bring it to the course.

Having made some changes, I kind of used the changes in some shots and lost the changes in some others, so my mid and long irons (normally a strong part of my game) were a bit off.

Apart from a 300+ drive on the first hole, my driving was off and some great wedges and chips from 100 yds in saved me from shooting 90+

All went "well" +2 over after 6 holes (bogey, bogey, birdie, par, bogey, par) just missed the first pars actually ...... a bad start and a chip-in birdie at the third ..... only a par at the short par 5 4th, a missed up & down at the 5th and a missed birdie putt at the 6th, so nothing wrong after 6 holes

At the 7th I hit a huge drive 325+ that got to a still dry edge of a waterhazard I never was in before and I ended up making a tripple there (bad decision going for the green from there and hit it into the water, instead of going for a drop) and at the next par 3 8th I hit two teeshots in the 150 yds water hazard short of the green ...... scoring an 8 (stupid mistake - taking to less club - stronger headwind than anticipated ) !!!!

Bye-bye score ........ 47 first nine, 40 second nine (including another tripple)...... only 26 putts ..... (actually if you don't count the two tripples and the 8 at that par 3 ....... I played well below my handicap at the other 15 holes ...... but ....)

Is golf a mental game ...... for me it is ...... I can make any shot, the trouble is making 72 good shots in a row.

There is so little between a great shot and a bad one, it is so easy to loose your game when playing from a single handicap, it must be even harder when playing from a handicap like yours !!!! I remember playing from a mid handicap (15 ish) ...... almost nothing could go wrong......

How do you handle the mental part ?