Driving tips Vids

[mdl]

Originally Posted by iacas

On the issues of why the club reacts the way it does I'm not sure I can help at all, but I'll try to answer your questions as well as I can.

I understand what you're saying, but the way I understand it, a properly fitted shaft will kick forward at impact, not remain back. I can't really answer this type of question - it's a club engineering question.

I will say that shafts - particularly stiffer ones swung by pros - have a fairly high cycles per minute rate. They don't need a lot of time to kick forward.

That may or may not be relevant given the outside forces acting on the shaft during the swing... I don't really know.

I'm going to see if I can get a club-fitting or shaft expert in here to answer these questions. The downside is that by the time I arrange this, it may take awhile.

Thanks again iacas.

So the short answer is, you've been told by technically knowledgable people that the outcome you're quoting is (in general) what happens (shaft kicks forward slightly before impact, increasing loft despite hands in front of club head), but neither of us understands the physics or engineering enough to give a super detailed explanation!  Fair enough :)

One super helpful thing for me that's come out of this is the fact that the average pro AoA is actually downward with the driver, and that's because it's easier to control the ball that way than if you hit it on the upswing.  I've gone back and forth with trying to hit the ball on the upswing or not with the driver.  I've noticed at the range that I can have days where I absolutely mash the ball with a higher launch angle and significantly more carry distance when I try hit the ball on the upswing, but it is hard to be consistent.  I always thought that was how pros did it and I just hadn't mastered it yet.  Good to know even the pros will take a few less carry yards for more control with the driver.

[Phil McGleno]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

Typical johnthejoker response. No original thoughts - just a video or a contrite common saying regardless of merit. Just because someone made a video doesn't make them correct. How about you apply some original thought for once? People made videos about how you should aim the clubface at the target and swing along the lines of your stance - doesn't make those people correct either.

I don't know what you think you're "joining" but it's not geometry and common sense. You tell the average golfer to push a ball away and keep the clubhead low in the takeaway and all sorts of problems arise - their hands get off plane, they don't extend enough in the backswing, the clubhead gets off plane, their head drops and slides...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mdl

So the short answer is, you've been told by technically knowledgable people that the outcome you're quoting is (in general) what happens (shaft kicks forward slightly before impact, increasing loft despite hands in front of club head), but neither of us understands the physics or engineering enough to give a super detailed explanation!  Fair enough :)

Yes, though to clarify, the hands might or might not be ahead of the clubhead. If the shaft bends, what part of the shaft do you use to determine "in front of"? The shaft close to the hosel will be pointing backwards while the shaft near the grip will be angled forwards. I suppose you could measure vertically, but whatever... probably somewhat irrelevant minutae.

Originally Posted by mdl

One super helpful thing for me that's come out of this is the fact that the average pro AoA is actually downward with the driver, and that's because it's easier to control the ball that way than if you hit it on the upswing. I've gone back and forth with trying to hit the ball on the upswing or not with the driver. I've noticed at the range that I can have days where I absolutely mash the ball with a higher launch angle and significantly more carry distance when I try hit the ball on the upswing, but it is hard to be consistent. I always thought that was how pros did it and I just hadn't mastered it yet. Good to know even the pros will take a few less carry yards for more control with the driver.

I agree with all of that. Note that we're teaching our players to hit the ball on the upswing slightly, because at the level most of the players we teach are at, those 15-20 yards are good even if they give up a little control (flying wedge, mostly). You might have some other things going on in your swing, because all we change is ball position and what our players should expect to see in terms of ball flight when we teach them this. If you're doing something to purposefully hit "up" on the ball you might very well be changing something fundamental to your swing. Our students make a very similar swing with a ball position that's just ever so slightly forward of low point.

[billk86]

For me it is all about the hips.  When I get my hips "through" the drive, I hit it long and straight, but when I don't get my hips all the way through I slice it.

[jshots]

Hey iacas, doesn't hitting down on the ball increase back spin which would intensify any fade or draw on the ball? By pros hitting down for more control do you mean they can control the shape of the shot more or are just trying to hit more fairways because it seems to me they would be missing more fairways by the added spin if they are simply looking to minimize error...

Also i have a swingspeed of about 105-110 with a driver, should i be trying to hit on the downswing too if i don't mind sacrificing a little distance?

[Sai-Jin]

So my friend who is a golf pro took a look at my driving... guess what... he fixed 1... ONE bloody thing that didn't come to my mind... took him 3 minutes to fix me, in which 1 month I took and was unsuccessful...

he told me to have a neutral stance ... and not do the Ben Hogan closed stance anymore... and BAM..... I'm back to hitting my driver 280+ yards...

and not just 1 or 2 balls, but the majority of the balls out of 100 balls / bucket...

I still can't believe it... my closed stance is what's causing the grief the entire month, not my back or down swing, not the ball placement and not the tee height...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by jshots

Hey iacas, doesn't hitting down on the ball increase back spin which would intensify any fade or draw on the ball?

The amount of curve is simply affected by the spin axis. More backspin would tend to have the effect of making the spin axis closer to 0 (pure vertical) than more tilted.

Originally Posted by jshots

Also i have a swingspeed of about 105-110 with a driver, should i be trying to hit on the downswing too if i don't mind sacrificing a little distance?

I don't know. I haven't seen your swing. You may be hitting it on the downswing now, or barely on the upswing, or way too much on the upswing...? What are your Trackman or Flightscope numbers?

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by Sai-Jin

So my friend who is a golf pro took a look at my driving... guess what... he fixed 1... ONE bloody thing that didn't come to my mind... took him 3 minutes to fix me, in which 1 month I took and was unsuccessful...

he told me to have a neutral stance ... and not do the Ben Hogan closed stance anymore... and BAM..... I'm back to hitting my driver 280+ yards...

and not just 1 or 2 balls, but the majority of the balls out of 100 balls / bucket...

I still can't believe it... my closed stance is what's causing the grief the entire month, not my back or down swing, not the ball placement and not the tee height...

Hey, just be happy it was that easy!

Originally Posted by jshots

Hey iacas, doesn't hitting down on the ball increase back spin which would intensify any fade or draw on the ball?

Hitting down on the ball will only increase backspin if it also increases your spin loft -- which is (basically) the difference between the face angle at impact and the angle of attack. Look at it this way, if you normally sweep the ball off the tee with a 0 degree AoA and your dynamic loft at impact is 10 degrees, then your spin loft is 10 degrees. Now you start trying to hit down on the ball more (say by moving it back in your stance) and develop a 2 degree negative AoA, but the effort also puts your hands a little more forward, relatively, at impact and effectively delofts the club by 2 degrees. Your spin loft is still 10 degrees (8 degrees - (-2 degrees)), so the amount of backspin stays exactly the same.

[Sai-Jin]

Stretch... yes... I'm rather happy, but I felt really stupid.

Well, I learned something new and it'll definitely stick to me for future reference.

so now I'm wondering, when you open or close your stance, your back and down swing will be in line with the feet / body

while the club face is pointed to the target correct? Thus Close stance: swing more inside and open stance almost out to in?

[mdl]

Quote:

I agree with all of that. Note that we're teaching our players to hit the ball on the upswing slightly, because at the level most of the players we teach are at, those 15-20 yards are good even if they give up a little control (flying wedge, mostly). You might have some other things going on in your swing, because all we change is ball position and what our players should expect to see in terms of ball flight when we teach them this. If you're doing something to purposefully hit "up" on the ball you might very well be changing something fundamental to your swing. Our students make a very similar swing with a ball position that's just ever so slightly forward of low point.

When I try to hit on the upswing I put the ball further forward and lean back a little (ie, line from head to belt buckle shifts to pointing slightly further away from the target, down the target line).  But with the ball further forward in the stance it turns my natural slight fade into a slice too often, so I have to think more about coming from the inside which may very well change other things.

But I'm a big guy with high swing speed (never had it checked properly, but I ended up with one of those spring based mechanical ones you can clip onto your club somehow, and that thing tells me I'm over 125 mph... probably loose and overestimating but I'm fast), and putting the ball 3-4" behind my left instep, presumably hitting down on the ball slightly, and swinging easy, I can still roll it out to 270+, so I don't need the extra distance.

[Th3R00st3r]

Thanks for the insight. I haven't used my driver in the last few round because I didn't have distance (about 150) and my 3 wood I was bombing out about 230. I will have to take a look at my stance when I tee up my driver next time to see if this will help. I'm not saying it's a fix-all, but it may get me started in the right direction to hitting my driver better.

Originally Posted by Sai-Jin

So my friend who is a golf pro took a look at my driving... guess what... he fixed 1... ONE bloody thing that didn't come to my mind... took him 3 minutes to fix me, in which 1 month I took and was unsuccessful...

he told me to have a neutral stance ... and not do the Ben Hogan closed stance anymore... and BAM..... I'm back to hitting my driver 280+ yards...

and not just 1 or 2 balls, but the majority of the balls out of 100 balls / bucket...

I still can't believe it... my closed stance is what's causing the grief the entire month, not my back or down swing, not the ball placement and not the tee height...