New Groove Rule

[iacas]

Unfortunately, I don't think the USGA is going far enough! I would prefer they reduce the groove volume to something more like what was found in the 1960's and 1970's, and make it for all clubs, not just 25* or lower.

Why would you care how big the grooves are on your 4-iron? And can you tell us how big grooves were in the 60s and 70s?

I would also like to see them get the ball makers by the throat and start controlling thier spin rates. I don't care about them reducing the all around distance of the ball as long as they did the other two, reducing groove volume and ball spin.

Why would they reduce spin? You realize that the reduction in spin with longer clubs like the driver is a small part of what's led to the distance guys hit the ball these days, right? Balata balls still spun a lot more than the current balls.

What this would do is essentially end the "Bomb & Gouge" era, but I don't believe the USGA/PGA Tour want to see that happen.

That's what this groove thing is meant to attack, and seeing as how it hasn't even gone into effect, I think it's too early to determine how well it's gone.

If you roll it back as much as I suggest your going to effect the play of the bigger hitters and two of those bigger hitters would be one Eldrick Woods and Phil Mickelson. Niether one of these guy's are even in the top 100 in Driving Accuracy. The two best players in the world not even in the top 100 in driving accuracy,,,what's up with that?

Yeah, because driving accuracy and nothing else is the determinant... And I'll tell you what: Tiger would rather be in the first cut of rough on the correct side of the fairway than in the fairway on the wrong side.

The USGA is really not doing much if anything to the long ball hitters with thier silly rule of 25* or lower, and they know exactly what they are doing.

Am I misreading you, or do you think the 25° rule is somehow catering to the long hitters? You are aware of what grooves do, right? And the fact that most people could do with LESS driver spin, right? And the fact that most drivers, for example, don't even HAVE grooves on them, right?

They say thier tests show not much difference in the short irons.

Their tests showed a significant difference in balls hit from the rough and the new grooves. What are you talking about?

But what they fail to say is that small difference of say 5-10 feet farther from the pin changes the players score by a significant amount. I don't mean to pick on Tiger and Phil but most par-4 holes they play they are hitting 8-pw into the green. If the USGA made all irons conform to the new changes then instead of Phil or Tiger stopping the ball 12-15 feet from the hole they may end up 20-25 feet from the hole which significantly reduces thier chance of making the putt!

Huh? The rule applies to clubs with 25° OR MORE of loft. Again, basically your 5I on up through to the wedges.

A lot of irons don't even have the largest grooves. Those are reserved for sand and lob wedges and the occasional pitching wedge.

Bottom line is the USGA and PGA Tour do not want the "Bomb and Gouge" era to end because it puts fans in the stands and it would also mean fewer wins for Tiger, and Tiger drives the money train, so thats less dollars in all thier pockets if he doesn't do well!

The common thought is actually that Tiger Woods will be more successful the tougher the game gets. And given your apparent backwards understanding of the rule...

Before you rant next time, I suggest a little bit of understanding.

[Cussin hacker]

Tigers clubs already conform to the new rules, and have for a long time!! Look it up. Parker0065 your coments are baseless accept for your own opinion.

[Parker0065]

Why would you care how big the grooves are on your 4-iron? And can you tell us how big grooves were in the 60s and 70s?

I read the rule and I stand corrected if I understand it right. If the USGA is going to change the grooves with a 5 iron-wedges then I commend them! People are writing 5 iron and up which to me means 5 iron through 1 iron, so I stand corrected! But they still have to control the ball manufactures in thier spin rates!!!! And, NO,,,Tiger is not playing all clubs by the new rules at this time. They have clearly stated that he is still using non-conforming wedges! Maybe thats why he went "0-fer" in the Majors this year with his supposed conforming irons! Could be a sign of the times to come! P.S. iacas, let me know when you want to get together and play a money match, I love taking down loudmouth's with attitude!!!! I'm in Saratoga NY so let me know when and where you want to play!!!

[Cussin hacker]

Tiger has only played a SW that doesn't conform to the new rules. All his other clubs do. In fact he is in favor of the changes for just that reason. He has prepared himself while some others have not. He did just win two in a row didn't he? Anyway Parker good for you in admitting a mistake!

[iacas]

Maybe thats why he went "0-fer" in the Majors this year with his supposed conforming irons! Could be a sign of the times to come!

He was using conforming clubs last year. And the year before. And the year before that, most likely (excluding his two extra wedges in each case). A lot of good players haven't had big grooves in their regular irons for awhile. Titleist's irons from 2008 conform as do all new ones.

It's not so much a rule for the 5I, but more one for wedges.

P.S. iacas, let me know when you want to get together and play a money match, I love taking down loudmouth's with attitude!!!! I'm in Saratoga NY so let me know when and where you want to play!!!

No thanks. I'd likely get tired of informing you what the rules actually say after you go on a silly, long-winded rant about how dumb it is that you can't mark your ball on the putting green or something.

P.S. You're seven hours away.

[Fourputt]

He was using conforming clubs last year. And the year before. And the year before that, most likely (excluding his two extra wedges in each case). A lot of good players haven't had big grooves in their regular irons for awhile. Titleist's irons from 2008 conform as do all new ones.

My Titleist AP-2's conform to the new rule, and groovewise they are just as playable as any other irons I've used, including my newest Callaway X-22's.

The Callaways are going into the spare bag for future reference and the AP-2's are going back in the bag tomorrow. Just not comfortable with the X-22's at the moment.

[Duffy]

How long can we buy square grove clubs? Will they go away when the new rules go into effect for the tour?

[Fredguay642]

They have to stop manufacturing them at the end of the year. They can still sell them while supplies last. So yes they will go away when the new rules go into effect for the tour.

[Fourputt]

They have to stop manufacturing them at the end of the year. They can still sell them while supplies last. So yes they will go away when the new rules go into effect for the tour.

Actually, any clubs manufactured through the end of 2010 will be legal for us hacks until 2024. Any made after 2010 will not be legal starting in 2011.

[iacas]

Actually, any clubs manufactured through the end of 2010 will be legal for us hacks until 2024. Any made after 2010 will not be legal starting in 2011.

I believe that's incorrect.

Clubs can be assembled after January 1, 2010, but they should have already been "manufactured." They'll be considered "legal" for regular play until at least 2024.

Source: http://www.usga.org/news/2008/September/The-New-Grooves-Rules-Explained/ The rules apply to clubs manufactured after Jan. 1, 2010, the same year that the USGA will enforce the new regulations through a condition of competition for the U.S. Open, U.S. Women's Open and U.S. Senior Open Championships and each of their qualifying events.

Also:

Source: http://www.jga.or.jp/jga/html/jga_data/04KISOKU_NEWS/2008_KISOKU/ApplicationofNewRulesonClubfaceMarkings.pdf “Manufactured By” Date The announcement stated that: “All clubs (with the exception of drivers and putters) manufactured after 1 January 2010 will be subject to the new specifications on club face markings.” The R&A;’s interpretation of this position is that, to satisfy this requirement: (i)the clubhead must exist in its finished form and be ready for sale and/or assembly by 1 January 2010; and (ii)the clubhead must be assembled and distributed to a retail environment (or sold directly to the customer) by 1 January 2011. Whilst this interpretation is primarily aimed at preventing the continued production of clubs which do not conform to the new Rules as soon as possible after their introduction, it also aims to take into consideration the complexity of the golf club manufacturing and assembly process, which naturally varies between manufacturers. To pre-empt some of the questions which may be raised in respect of the above, I am attaching a list of ‘frequently asked questions’.

So either manufacturers are making a bunch of clubheads to "assemble" and sell through 2010 or they're planning to dry up inventory and hit the shelves soon here with conforming stuff right away. I don't know, and it may vary from brand to brand.

[Cussin hacker]

Companies can make as many as they want thru the end of this year and sell them from here forward till they run out. As stated we can use them till 2024 unless your in a PGA/ USGA/RNA event. I'd say you will be able to buy new square groove clubs for another year or two. Time will tell though.

[is2linda]

Actually, any clubs manufactured through the end of 2010 will be legal for us hacks until 2024. Any made after 2010 will not be legal starting in 2011.

Wait is this true? Where did you find this?

[Bruce M]

so when the new rules take effect, will the clubs that came out this year go down in price because theyre not legal. or will they increase in price due to the fact that they will no longer be produced.

[Jay-Bird]

from Ping's argument (2007)

In targeting grooves, the rulemaking bodies ignored numerous changes that likely impacted the game over the past 30 years. It is nearly impossible to conclude that a single variable (grooves) caused any observed changes to the game at the PGA Tour level over the past 25 years. To attempt to do so requires that you ignore all of the other changes to the game since 1984 (the year square grooves were allowed), including the following: course conditioning, driver improvements (such as large-headed drivers made with exotic materials), shaft improvements, improved golf balls and golf ball cover materials, improved agronomy, increased athleticism, improved player conditioning, improved player training aids, launch angle-fitting and even improved coaching. As an example, tremendous course-conditioning changes have occurred on the PGA Tour since the 1970s. According to historical PGA Tour Course Conditioning Guidelines, since then the length of the primary rough has been reduced by as much as 60%. The height of the intermediate rough (also described as the first cut) is now as short as some fairways used to be. The grass on the fairways and greens is also shorter. If the USGA/R&A; are concerned whether PGA Tour pros find it too easy to hit out of the rough, why didn't they focus on changes to the PGA Tour's course set-up guidelines? If the PGA Tour's set-up guidelines were reviewed, why weren't they mentioned in any of the reports? It is unfair to make amateurs buy new clubs, just so PGA Tour pros can continue to play courses without the deeper roughs yesterday's pros were forced to tackle.

[Fourputt]

I believe that's incorrect.

I had originally thought this, then I've read in several places that the deadline was pushed out to 2010... but maybe the pieces I read misinterpreted

manufacture and assemble . I'll stand corrected.

[Fourputt]

from Ping's argument (2007)

Who really cares? Pings statement (and I've read the whole thing) is nothing but rabble rousing.

The USGA has no control over what the PGA Tour does when they set up a course. They do have some say in what equipment is available and this is how they chose to try and get the game back to where hitting the fairway is rewarded and missing the fairway is slightly punished. Of course Ping is going to be unhappy... they received a rather questionably favorable ruling in a previous lawsuit, and now it's only natural that they would start to whine again. They built their reputation on box grooves, and now they will have to find anothere way to stay with the competition. Nobody is making amateurs buy new clubs. That statement is blatantly false. Your current clubs are legal for any of the competitions that you or I are likely to be involved in for another 15 years. Any golfer who could remotely be affected by this change will have replaced his set at least a couple of times during that period. That statement is intended to do nothing but make anyone who reads it think that he is being abused by the USGA.... nothing could be further from the truth. Except for my wedges, I already use clubs which conform to the new rules, and they work just fine. I still get decent stopping power on full shots even from medium rough (I can back up an 8I from the fairway with my AP-2's), and I don't hit the ball nearly as hard as a tour pro does. This is again, much ado about absolutely nothing.

[EightBlue]

does anyone know if these will be in effect for most state/local golf associations or just for USGA/professional events?

also, who here will be getting new wedges next year? if so, how do you feel about it and will you be changing balls to match the wedges

[Fourputt]

does anyone know if these will be in effect for most state/local golf associations or just for USGA/professional events?

That would be up to the individual association and competition committee. No way to make a blanket statement.

also, who here will be getting new wedges next year? if so, how do you feel about it and will you be changing balls to match the wedges

Something to remember... clubs with square grooves will still be sold for at least part of 2010. Any clubheads manufactured in 2009 can still be assembled, sold and played legally as long as they conform to pre 2010 rules. The rule only goes fully into effect for clubheads manufactured after 2009.