What's the play here?

[djackson89]

Okay, so yesterday I was playing in my club championship and something happened that no one knew what to do with:

I'm Player A, and another guy in my foursome is playing B.

Player B is just off the green, makes a long 60 foot putt on a par 3 for a 2. I'm just off the green on the other side waiting to chip as it rolls in. It rolls in and he begins walking his cart around the green. I move ahead with my shot and proceed to blade my chip and it starts rolling right towards him.

He looks up and sees the ball rolling towards him (the 3 of us are all watching the ball roll at him at a good pace, likely headed for the rough or even borderline bunker behind him). He then bends down and collects the ball as Derek Jeter would playing shortstop (thinking one of us took his ball out of the hole and tossed it back to him). Once he notices this is not the case he puts my ball down and kind of stares at us.

I'm pretty new to the game so I didn't comment on what the ruling should be, but one of the other guys said that I will play it from where he put it down without penalty to anyone as he is an outside object.

What I think the ruling would be (and this is where it gets sticky) is that I would play the ball from approximatley where it would have come to rest (debate would take place over the rough or the bunker as it's not known if it would have made it) and he would take a 2 stroke penalty for touching another players ball?

Anyone? I asked our club pro and he said he'd have to look it up as he's never heard of that before.

[MackJL06]

i dont think a playing partner in your group could be an "outside object"....but i dont know the rule...something tells me he gets penalized too? we have some pretty good people on here though that find the right ruling so i'm hoping to learn as well

Originally Posted by djackson89

Okay, so yesterday I was playing in my club championship and something happened that no one knew what to do with:

I'm Player A, and another guy in my foursome is playing B.

Player B is just off the green, makes a long 60 foot putt on a par 3 for a 2. I'm just off the green on the other side waiting to chip as it rolls in. It rolls in and he begins walking his cart around the green. I move ahead with my shot and proceed to blade my chip and it starts rolling right towards him.

He looks up and sees the ball rolling towards him (the 3 of us are all watching the ball roll at him at a good pace, likely headed for the rough or even borderline bunker behind him). He then bends down and collects the ball as Derek Jeter would playing shortstop (thinking one of us took his ball out of the hole and tossed it back to him). Once he notices this is not the case he puts my ball down and kind of stares at us.

I'm pretty new to the game so I didn't comment on what the ruling should be, but one of the other guys said that I will play it from where he put it down without penalty to anyone as he is an outside object.

What I think the ruling would be (and this is where it gets sticky) is that I would play the ball from approximatley where it would have come to rest (debate would take place over the rough or the bunker as it's not known if it would have made it) and he would take a 2 stroke penalty for touching another players ball?

Anyone? I asked our club pro and he said he'd have to look it up as he's never heard of that before.

[rustyredcab]

Player B, the guy who picked up your ball, is your partner or opponent?

Either way, bad news. If he is your partner, lots of bad things should happen -- loss of hole in matchplay and God only knows how many strokes in medal play. But if he is your opponent then I can not see how you can do anything but play it from wherever he picked it up without penalty to you.

Others on this forum are rules gurus. It will be interesting to find out.

[djackson89]

He was my opponent. I played it from where he put it down but he did not get any penatly for it.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by djackson89

He was my opponent. I played it from where he put it down but he did not get any penatly for it.

Rule 19 (Ball in Motion Deflected or Stopped) says it all:

(begin quote)

19-3. By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play

If a player’s ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by an opponent,
his caddie or his equipment, there is no penalty.The player may, before
another stroke is made by either side, cancel the stroke and play a ball,
without penalty, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the
original ball was last played (Rule 20-5) or he may play the ball as it
lies. However, if the player elects not to cancel the stroke and the ball
has come to rest in or on the opponent’s or his caddie’s clothes or
equipment, the ball must through the green or in a hazard be dropped,
or on the putting green be placed, as near as possible to the spot
directly under the place where the ball came to rest in or on the
article, but not nearer the hole.

Exception: Ball striking person attending or holding up flagstick or
anything carried by him – see Rule 17-3b.

(Ball purposely deflected or stopped by opponent or caddie – see
Rule 1-2)

(end quote)

The only question here is whether he deliberately stopped your ball or accidentally. Now, as you described the situation he thought it was his own ball so personally I would go for the 'accidentally' option. Thus, you would have had the option to cancel the stroke and replay it, or continue as you did. No penalty to anyone.

[djackson89]

That would have been good to know. Because I went on the triple that hole lol. Paying 2 and re shooting could have been a blessing.

[rustyredcab]

Ignorant -- What about medal/stroke play?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by djackson89

He was my opponent. I played it from where he put it down but he did not get any penatly for it.

Was he your opponent (match play) or your fellow competitor (stroke play)?  We need positive clarification because the answer is different depending on his status.

If he is a fellow competitor in a stroke play competition, then he is an outside agency in this instance and there is no penalty and the ball is played as it lies.

If he is your opponent in a match play competition, then there is still no penalty, but you have the option of recalling the stroke and playing it over (in this case that would seem to be to your advantage).

It is necessary to determine what form of play is under way because that determines the status of the players around you.

[djackson89]

Ahhh, even better. It was in stroke play, so he was a fellow competitor and not my direct competitor. So we made the right play.

[rustyredcab]

I think "fellow competitor" is "direct competitor." The key is that he was not your partner.

Thanks FourPutt for the ruling clairification. If I have this right: stroke play must play it where he touched it (as opposed to were he then set it down or threw it) and match play you add the option of re-playing the shot.

[mdl]

I'd personally call it a violation of rule 1-2.  Just because he was being an idiot and thought it was his ball doesn't matter.  It's a tournament.  Pay attention and don't walk with your head down in the line of fire (on a mishit) while someone else is taking a shot!  If I were the rules official in a tourney I'd say you play from where it lies and he takes a 2 stroke penalty.

[rustyredcab]

In the case of a guy bending down, picking up a ball, and then either dropping it or setting it down, where is WHERE IT LIES? If it banged off him and then came to rest, I assume where it lies is were it came to rest. But, I know he can't throw it and call that result "where it lies." So is it where he picked it up?

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by djackson89

Okay, so yesterday I was playing in my club championship and something happened that no one knew what to do with:

I'm Player A, and another guy in my foursome is playing B.

Player B is just off the green, makes a long 60 foot putt on a par 3 for a 2. I'm just off the green on the other side waiting to chip as it rolls in. It rolls in and he begins walking his cart around the green. I move ahead with my shot and proceed to blade my chip and it starts rolling right towards him.

He looks up and sees the ball rolling towards him (the 3 of us are all watching the ball roll at him at a good pace, likely headed for the rough or even borderline bunker behind him). He then bends down and collects the ball as Derek Jeter would playing shortstop (thinking one of us took his ball out of the hole and tossed it back to him). Once he notices this is not the case he puts my ball down and kind of stares at us.

I'm pretty new to the game so I didn't comment on what the ruling should be, but one of the other guys said that I will play it from where he put it down without penalty to anyone as he is an outside object.

What I think the ruling would be (and this is where it gets sticky) is that I would play the ball from approximatley where it would have come to rest (debate would take place over the rough or the bunker as it's not known if it would have made it) and he would take a 2 stroke penalty for touching another players ball?

Anyone? I asked our club pro and he said he'd have to look it up as he's never heard of that before.

I haven't read any of the answers yet, but 19.4 says that a ball that is deflected of stopped by a fellow competitor (I assume you were playing stroke play) is treated under 19.1 as being deflected or stopped by an outside agency.  In which case you play it as it lies, not where you think it would have gone if he hadn't touched it.

Since your fellow competitor stopped the ball purposely, he could be subject to disqualification under 1.2.  However under these circumstances where he reasonably though it was his ball being rolled to him after the putt, I think the Committee would, in equity, be justified in nor disqualifying him since it was, in effect, an inadvertent breach.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by djackson89

He was my opponent. I played it from where he put it down but he did not get any penatly for it.

Ah, that changes everything, since if he is you opponent you must have been playing match play.  You really need to put all of the facts into the original scenario.

In this case the question is first whether his action is deemed to be deliberate or accidental.  In this case, as he thought it was his ball, one could argue that it was accidental.

Assuming you decide that it was accidental you have the option under 19.3 of canceling the stroke and replaying it, as nearly as possible from the original spot, or playing it as it lies.  No penalty on either side.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by djackson89

That would have been good to know. Because I went on the triple that hole lol. Paying 2 and re shooting could have been a blessing.

I'm still a little confused.  Was it match play (he is your opponent) or was it stroke play (he is your fellow competitor).  I ask because you said he was your opponent, implying match play, but then you seemed to put some emphasis on the fact that you made triple, which wouldn't really have have mattered since his long putt would have won the hole anyway unless it took him an inordinate number of strokes to get to the point of the putt.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I'm still a little confused.  Was it match play (he is your opponent) or was it stroke play (he is your fellow competitor).  I ask because you said he was your opponent, implying match play, but then you seemed to put some emphasis on the fact that you made triple, which wouldn't really have have mattered since his long putt would have won the hole anyway unless it took him an inordinate number of strokes to get to the point of the putt.

If you read the thread you would see that the question has been answered.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If you read the thread you would see that the question has been answered.

That is a fair point.

I just like to test myself by trying to answer before seeing the answers of others.  So I was glad that the points I mentioned were the same as those the more knowledgeable guys (like you) raised.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

In the case of a guy bending down, picking up a ball, and then either dropping it or setting it down, where is WHERE IT LIES? If it banged off him and then came to rest, I assume where it lies is were it came to rest. But, I know he can't throw it and call that result "where it lies." So is it where he picked it up?

If he was still holding the ball in his hand then theplayer would drop the ball there. In the OP the ball had already been laid down so that is where the player will continue his play from.

Had the fellow-competitor thrown the ball eg. back to the player the place where to drop would still have been where he picked the ball up. There is some guidance in Decisions 19-1/4.1 and 19-1/6.