The Mental Game in Two Words

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Vespidae said:

Bubba Watson has spoken about the mental issues he faces during a round. 

What's your point? I've never denied that some players will have more or less anxiety than others.

Bubba Watson, despite his mental game struggles, is still a top player in the world. He's better than you, and you could have a perfect mental game, and he'd still whip your ass.

Bubba is a two-time major winner. Hence, the mental game is over-rated.

1 minute ago, Vespidae said:

And just mentioning DJ is like saying there’s no poverty in America ... look there’s a millionaire.

No, it's not like that at all.

[Vespidae]

2 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

What is your point? Bubba has won the Masters twice because he’s a great golfer. His physical skills are next level. He has anxiety, but he wins because he is physically better.

He wins because he is a great golfer who controls his anxiety and how he physically responds to it. 

[boogielicious]

2 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

He wins because he is a great golfer who controls his anxiety and how he physically responds to it. 

He wins because he is physically better, period. 

[Vespidae]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Bubba Watson, despite his mental game struggles, is still a top player in the world. He's better than you, and you could have a perfect mental game, and he'd still whip your ass.

What’s your point? A PGA champion is going to beat my ass and that proves your point? 
How about all the players who couldn’t control it and washed out?

[boogielicious]

Just now, Vespidae said:

What’s your point? A PGA champion is going to beat my ass and that proves your point? 
How about all the players who couldn’t control it and washed out?

They weren’t as good physically not mentally.

[Vespidae]

2 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

He wins because he is physically better, period. 

You do understand what “physically better” means? It means less variation in performance ... which means he manages stress better. 

Just now, boogielicious said:

They weren’t as good physically not mentally.

How do you know that their physical underperformance wasn’t due to complications from anxiety?

[boogielicious]

Just now, Vespidae said:

You do understand what “physically better” means? It means less variation in performance ... which means he manages stress better. 

No it doesn’t. It means he is more accurate at striking the ball and drives it farther. It has nothing to do with anxiety.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

He wins because he is a great golfer.

You should have stopped there. He's a great golfer because he's physically better than others.

11 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

You do understand what “physically better” means? It means less variation in performance ... which means he manages stress better.

No, it doesn't.

Guys have won majors and admitted to choking their guts out by the end. Rich Beem was certain he was going to shank the approach shot he hit into the last green. His physical skills, his training, allowed his body to do what it had been trained to do.

If "managing the stress" was as important as you're saying, then what's holding so many people back on the mini tours, or whatever? What held you back, or the guys you talked about who quit the Tour, from playing higher level golf? Mental game stuff?

Why can't you beat Bubba, who suffers from anxiety?

Because you're nowhere near, physically, as good as they are.

11 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

How do you know that their physical underperformance wasn’t due to complications from anxiety?

Their "underperformance" is still miles ahead of a mini-tour player.

[Vespidae]

1 minute ago, boogielicious said:

No it doesn’t. It means he is more accurate at striking the ball and drives it farther. It has nothing to do with anxiety.

Nonsense. Bubba has fear of crowds. Let’s say he is surrounded by a group and tightens his grip in response (a real outcome of anxiety is tension). 
He then hooks the ball out of bounds. 
You’re saying that has nothing to do with his score?
 

It doesn’t happen (often) because Bubba knows this and manages it. 
 

At the local muni, who cares? Playing for millions ... I’ll bet they have all sorts of coping mechanisms.

1 minute ago, iacas said:

If "managing the stress" was as important as you're saying, then what's holding so many people back on the mini tours, or whatever? What held you back, or the guys you talked about who quit the Tour, from playing higher level golf? Mental game stuff?

I never said it was more important. I said it’s not zero. 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

I never said it was more important. I said it’s not zero. 

Please find the part where anyone has ever said "it's zero."

[Vespidae]

Just now, iacas said:

Please find the part where anyone has ever said "it's zero."

Please find the part where I said it was more important.

I believe that at the highest levels of the game, golfers probably suffer from anxiety at the same rate of the general population. And those who do, control it better than their peers.

[boogielicious]

Just now, Vespidae said:

Nonsense. Bubba has fear of crowds. Let’s say he is surrounded by a group and tightens his grip in response (a real outcome of anxiety is tension). 
He then hooks the ball out of bounds. 
You’re saying that has nothing to do with his score?
 

It doesn’t happen (often) because Bubba knows this and manages it. 
 

At the local muni, who cares? Playing for millions ... I’ll bet they have all sorts of coping mechanisms.

That is just nonsense. Bubba wins because he has better physical skills. I’m a chemical engineer because I have better math skills. I’m just better at math than 99.9% of the population. It has nothing to do with managing stress. I’m just better at math and chemistry. You are putting way too much emphasis on the mental side.

[Vespidae]

Just now, boogielicious said:

That is just nonsense. Bubba wins because he has better physical skills. I’m a chemical engineer because I have better math skills. I’m just better at math than 99.9% of the population. It has nothing to do with managing stress. I’m just better at math and chemistry. You are putting way too much emphasis on the mental side.

Spurious argument. Stress is situational. Are you stressed when you are in your office? I doubt it. 

[boogielicious]

Just now, Vespidae said:

Spurious argument. Stress is situational. Are you stressed when you are in your office? I doubt it. 

Of course I am. Work is stress. College was stress. Tests were stress. Geez dude, you make it sound like all you need to do is manage stress and you’ll win the US Open. They win because they are better athletes. I scored better on tests because I was better at math.

[iacas]

The same thing is happening here that happened in the "65/20/15" topic.

You're misreading or misunderstanding some fundamental things, and then running with it.

Nobody has said the mental game is completely unimportant, or contributes zero to anyone's performance. Nobody has said there are no outliers, for whom the mental game isn't slightly more important than it is for the majority.

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The last tournament I played in was stressful. Guess what? I performed well, because I've trained my body physically to do so. If you could have magically put a 3 handicap on the course without any stress… I'd have beat him, because I'm physically better than me.

And if Bubba had played, he'd have kicked my ass, even if you could induce near panic state levels of stress.

[Vespidae]

Just now, boogielicious said:

Of course I am. Work is stress. College was stress. Tests were stress. Geez dude, you make it sound like all you need to do is manage stress and you’ll win the US Open. They win because they are better athletes. I scored better on tests because I was better at math.

I never said that. These same athletes are playing against other superior athletes. Little edges matter ... 

As to casual golf, I don’t think it matters much if at all.

[iacas]

Just now, Vespidae said:

I never said that. These same athletes are playing against other superior athletes. Little edges matter ... 

Great, we agree, and we can stop with this nonsense now.

The mental game sometimes offers a very little edge. Nobody's ever said otherwise.

[Vespidae]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

Nobody has said the mental game is completely unimportant, or contributes zero to anyone's performance

I think the term was it’s overrated. And at the highest levels of the game, I don’t think it’s overrated. I’ve stated my reasons why ...