Haas and advice

[Alistair]

Before the playoff for the Tour Championship and FedEx Cup, Bill Haas was joined on the practice range by his caddie and by his famous PGA player father Jay Haas.  The TV sound picked up a little of the conversation, and it sounded like his Dad was giving some advice.  Understandable, but did that breach Rule 8-1?

8-1. Advice

During a stipulated round, a player must not:

(a) give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner , or
(b) ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies .

The answer here is not one of location, as if someone could step over a boundary fence and claim not to be on the course in order to get advice.  The answer has to be about whether advice was given during a stipulated round.  Had Bill Haas finished his stipulated round or was it about to restart?  If the second of these, should he have got advice during his waiting time?

If playoff holes are not part of a stipulated round, what are they?  They could be an authorized shorter round (as allowed for in the Definitions) but would then be a separate stipulated round.  If that is the case, then language of a match finishing on the 19 ^th , 20 ^th or 21 ^st hole is inaccurate, and we should talk instead of the 1 ^st , 2 ^nd or 3 ^rd hole of the extra (sudden-death) round.

Does anyone have clarity on this?

[Shorty]

I knew someone would ask this. Did you notice that Bill was also hitting balls? That should answer your question. He could have used a training aid or done any number of things you can't do during a stipulated round. He had finished his stipulated round. In a match, you can't stop and practice half way through. In stroke play, you DO talk about the first, second and third hole of a playoff. A playoff is not a "round".

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Alistair

The answer has to be about whether advice was given during a stipulated round.  Had Bill Haas finished his stipulated round or was it about to restart?

This one is easy, Decision 3/3, i.e. the stipulated round had already ended. And by definition of "stipulated round" the maximum number of holes is 18.

In all forms of stroke play other than foursomes, a competitor has begun his stipulated round when he makes his first stroke in that round. In foursomes stroke play, the side has begun its stipulated round when it makes its first stroke in that round.

In individual stroke play, the competitor's stipulated round has ended when he has completed play of the final hole of that round (including correction of an error under a Rule, e.g., Rule 15-3b or Rule 20-7c). In foursomes or four-ball stroke play, the stipulated round has ended when the side has completed play of the final hole of that round (including correction of an error under a Rule).

[Mr. Desmond]

"Now, Bill, this is how you spin a ball out of water."

Great advice.

:-)

[Alistair]

Okay - it's clear that the interval between the round and playoff holes was separated out - so Haas could practice and get advice during that time.  What is not yet answered (but I'm sure can be!) is the status of playoff holes.  What are these - a shorter stipulated round?  If not a 'stipulated round', are the Rule 8-1 provisions about advice applicable for they are clearly linked with playing a stipulated round?  Or are they still part of the original round, so the 19th, 20th, 21st holes, etc.?

Definition of Stipulated Round: The " stipulated round " consists of playing the holes of the course in their correct sequence, unless otherwise authorized by the Committee . The number of holes in a stipulated round is 18 unless a smaller number is authorized by the Committee

So, a stipulated round can be less than 18.

[Alistair]

Sorry - realized just after last posting that the quote of Decision 3/3 clarifies that a stipulated round has finished after the 18 holes.  And I see that Decision 3/1 says someone disqualified in a play-off is disqualified only from the play-off, not the whole competition - therefore separating out the play-off holes.

That's fine, but I am still interested in the status of the extra holes and how they fit with Rule 8-1 or any other that seem to apply only to stipulated rounds.

[Alistair]

I've learned now from other sources that a play-off in stroke play is a new stipulated round.  So no issues arise about advice given or accepted between the original 18 holes and the play-off.

Perhaps the last lesson remaining is to note the difference between an 'extension' in match play and a 'play-off' in stroke play.  In match play the extra holes (19th hole, 20th hole, etc.) are a continuation of the stipulated round, so any player taking a brief break after 18 cannot accept advice during that short interval.