Darrell Klassen

[mvmac]

Hey if he helps your game stick with it but a lot of his information is very "kooky" based on some of the videos I've seen, the way he demonstrates a golf swing and what was just posted.  Emphasis on a release style and explaining ball flight laws with ping pong balls.  So you would assume he'd say to hit a draw you have to "turn it over" and to fade it, hold the face open.

[drsagacity]

If you think about it, it's kind of unreal that anyone coaches Tiger...yet he has switched coaches and swing styles multiple times. I would imagine that every golf coach would love to have Tiger as a student...If you were going to point to one challenge in Tiger's game, it's his accuracy hitting off the tee, right? In this context DK believes that if Tiger used his swing philosophy then he would find the short grass more consistently. Is he right? Who knows... doesn't it stand to reason that Haney and Foley thought they could fix Tiger's swing too (even though he was already the best player on the planet)? I suspect a few other coaches have thought the same over the years...

As far as Klassen goes, I am perfectly willing to overlook those sorts of comments because I suspect any golf instructor who believes in his/her swing philosophy will feel the same way...agreed it's kind of silly to call it out because it can cause the exact response you provided...

[Phil McGleno]

He is not right-No. Guy is a weirdo. He and Dalton should form an academy.[quote name="drsagacity" url="/t/53906/darrell-klassen/18#post_917030"]If you think about it, it's kind of unreal that anyone coaches Tiger...yet he has switched coaches and swing styles multiple times. I would imagine that every golf coach would love to have Tiger as a student...If you were going to point to one challenge in Tiger's game, it's his accuracy hitting off the tee, right? In this context DK believes that if Tiger used his swing philosophy then he would find the short grass more consistently. Is he right? Who knows... doesn't it stand to reason that Haney and Foley thought they could fix Tiger's swing too (even though he was already the best player on the planet)? I suspect a few other coaches have thought the same over the years... As far as Klassen goes, I am perfectly willing to overlook those sorts of comments because I suspect any golf instructor who believes in his/her swing philosophy will feel the same way...agreed it's kind of silly to call it out because it can cause the exact response you provided... [/quote]

[Ernest Jones]

What if I attain maximum speed at a point beyond the ball but do so while cutting across it with a wide open face?

[drsagacity]

MVMac, You made a comment about making the ball curve, yes, he would definitely say you can try "wrapping the toe" of the club to draw the ball and "dragging the toe" to fade the ball. He would say that making any ball curve requires the same path/face angle relationship.

Ernest, you asked, what happens if you achieve maximum speed past the ball with the clubface wide open. I guess the question would be "open to what"? Open to your swing path? Open to your target line? According to Klassen, you are never trying to get your clubface to be "square" to the target line because in his opinion, "square" doesn't really exist. That is to say, you are swinging on an arc so there are two factors, swing path and face angle. If the face angle is right of your path, it's cutting. If it's left of your path, it's drawing. . .same as a ping pong ball.

[mvmac]

MVMac, You made a comment about making the ball curve, yes, he would definitely say you can try "wrapping the toe" of the club to draw the ball and "dragging the toe" to fade the ball. He would say that making any ball curve requires the same path/face angle relationship.

And that is false, misleading, flat out wrong.  If anything "wrapping the toe" will tends to make the ball fade because it takes the path more to the left. All good players that draw the ball have a face aiming RIGHT of the target at impact, faders have the face aimed LEFT of the target. Ball starts more where the face is aimed and curves away from the path.

The same path/face angle would create a straight ball.  Face 2* right, path 2* right would be a slight straight push.

This isn't opinion, just the way it is.

[drsagacity]

MVMac,

You wrote, "~~And that is false, misleading, flat out wrong. If anything "wrapping the toe" will tends to make the ball fade because it takes the path more to the left. All good players that draw the ball have a face aiming RIGHT of the target at impact, faders have the face aimed LEFT of the target. Ball starts more where the face is aimed and curves away from the path. The same path/face angle would create a straight ball. Face 2* right, path 2* right would be a slight straight push. This isn't opinion, just the way it is".

No disagreement about the ball flight laws. The science of ball flight is clear. I wrote the last sentence poorly. I was saying that path and face angle are the two variables and the same thing that makes a ping pong ball curve causes the golf ball to curve. That is the same combination of clubface angle and swing path...not meaning that the swing path and clubface were zeroed out.

Your assertion that wrapping the toe will tend to cause a cut is absolute nonsense however. Closing the face will never cause "more of a fade". Based on your own description, the clubface will pretty much tell you where the ball will start. The swing path will dictate the flight. Wrapping the toe of the club as Klassen describes absolutely will never cause the swingpath to be more to left (for a right handed player). In fact, wrapping the toe combined with the idea that the "power point" is low and to the right causes the swingpath to be more to the right. His powerpoint concept matches up with the release to get the ball flight you want.

The bad thing about the ball flight stuff is that you are 100% correct as it relates to science. The proof we have from computers clearly demonstrate what happens. However, Jack N. felt that he pointed the face where he wanted the ball to end up and made his swing path go where he wanted the ball to start. Assuming he had the results he anticipated it's safe to say he wasn't doing what he thought....nonetheless, the feeling worked for the greatest player of all time. When teaching someone to do something, is it important to give the scientific facts, or is it important to work toward getting them the right feel to pull off what they are trying to do? I don't know this answer, but as it relates to the subject, Klassen is undoubtedly on the side of swinging free and playing by feel.

[mvmac]

Your assertion that wrapping the toe will tend to cause a cut is absolute nonsense however. Closing the face will never cause "more of a fade". Based on your own description, the clubface will pretty much tell you where the ball will start. The swing path will dictate the flight. Wrapping the toe of the club as Klassen describes absolutely will never cause the swingpath to be more to left (for a right handed player). In fact, wrapping the toe combined with the idea that the "power point" is low and to the right causes the swingpath to be more to the right. His powerpoint concept matches up with the release to get the ball flight you want.

Ok well we'll just have to agree to disagree.  To me "release" is just an effect of good sequencing, you don't consciously "release" the club, meaning rolling your forearms counter clockwise.  Rolling the toe rotates the path left because the handle will start to back up, the lead wrist will cup more.  Handle back tends to promote a path across the ball, handle forward tends to promote a right ward swing direction.  If I wanted to hit the biggest draws that start right of the target (push draws), this is what I would do (below), not roll my forearms more.  Rolling the toe can also get the face to point too far to the left.

[iacas]

Your assertion that wrapping the toe will tend to cause a cut is absolute nonsense however. Closing the face will never cause "more of a fade". Based on your own description, the clubface will pretty much tell you where the ball will start. The swing path will dictate the flight. Wrapping the toe of the club as Klassen describes absolutely will never cause the swingpath to be more to left (for a right handed player). In fact, wrapping the toe combined with the idea that the "power point" is low and to the right causes the swingpath to be more to the right. His powerpoint concept matches up with the release to get the ball flight you want.

We've seen it many, many times. Players will roll and send the clubhead low and LEFT. They'll hit pull cuts. Feeling like they hold off the "release" keeps the face pointing more to the right and keeps the clubhead tracing up and OUT more.

That's what @mvmac was talking about.

[drsagacity]

Iacas, I understand exactly what mvmac was saying; however this thread is about Darrell Klansmen and the point is dead wrong as it relates to his instruction because of how Darrell uses the PowerPoint in combination with working the toe. If you want to discuss the challenges with the way other instructors teach the move I could be inclined to agree with the point.

I really like the video you included as it is very much inline with the stuff I am working on with Gary Edwin's right side swing. However, since the thread is a out DK wasn't going there.

[mvmac]

Iacas, I understand exactly what mvmac was saying; however this thread is about Darrell Klansmen and the point is dead wrong as it relates to his instruction because of how Darrell uses the PowerPoint in combination with working the toe. If you want to discuss the challenges with the way other instructors teach the move I could be inclined to agree with the point.

Just doing a quick search it seems at impact he wants the low point forward and the right hip forward of where it started, which is good but I would say if you have those two things then there is no reason to "work the toe" in any direction.  Just makes things more complicated IMO and it's not necessary.

I really like the video you included as it is very much inline with the stuff I am working on with Gary Edwin's right side swing. However, since the thread is a out DK wasn't going there.

Just to be clear that was a drill, not the way we want people to set-up to play golf.  I don't mind a bit of a "reverse K" for beginners and high handicappers though.

[Ernest Jones]

Darrell Klansmen

:bugout:

[tristanhilton85]

Same exact thought. You can be sure he wouldn't be Tiger's coach.

[Ricomania]

There are many golf teachings out there. I tried some of Klassen's techniques, tips, teachings, whatever and improved my swing. Some may think it's unorthodox but try it out. Might just work for you.

[drsagacity]

Ricomania, I agree with you. It's funny. I have bought and read hundreds of golf books and while not nearly as many, I have bought and watched dozens of videos. Many of these items have been from "top" teachers. I am not saying anything wrong about any of them; however, at the end, following DK's simple swing method I am really getting great results. The weather just broke and after working on some drills Darrell suggested I hit the ball better in my first two outings this year than ever.

For me, I am done with all other instruction...I would say that learning your golf swing is a journey. For me DK is the last stop. I can't say it's right for everyone, but I agree with you... others may find it a fun and simple way to play the game.

I think there are three important aspects to his swing methodology:

1. Hammer down behind you with your left hand. The hammer motion naturally "curls the toe". This is likely the cause of much of the debate and truthfully, I think it's a different way to describe the same thing others talk about. That is, when you have no tension and you try to hammer down with the left, you will see a massive "angle"... however, there is absolutely no attempt to create or hold the angle... it happens as a byproduct of trying to hammer down.

2. Make a good pivot (guarantees the low point)

3. Hit your PowerPoint with as much power as you want

[drsagacity]

MVMac,

I just noticed part of your comment and thought I should also clarify, in no part of Darrell Klassen's teaching does he suggest that you roll your forearms to close the face. He says you hammer down with your left wrist. Maybe an easier way to describe it is hammer down and turn your knuckles down. This action causes a bowed left wrist as your wrist cannot hammer down and cup. With the correct grip, this hammer action causes the clubfaces to close... when blended with a good pivot it's a thing of beauty. There is absolutely NO effort to roll the forearm... I hope this helps.

[mvmac]

MVMac,

I just noticed part of your comment and thought I should also clarify, in no part of Darrell Klassen's teaching does he suggest that you roll your forearms to close the face. He says you hammer down with your left wrist. Maybe an easier way to describe it is hammer down and turn your knuckles down. This action causes a bowed left wrist as your wrist cannot hammer down and cup. With the correct grip, this hammer action causes the clubfaces to close... when blended with a good pivot it's a thing of beauty. There is absolutely NO effort to roll the forearm... I hope this helps.

I think "knuckles down" can be a useful feel but being concerned with the club face "closing" can send the clubhead low and LEFT. End up hitting pull cuts. If you mean closed to the path, that's fine, if you mean closed to the target, that could be an issue.

[blues]

I had to sign up for this forum to throw my opinion in the ring.  I have been golfing for many years and am constantly looking to find ways to improve my game.  I have played with golfers at every level and one thing MOST have in common are a set of swing thoughts.  Some have as few as one and some tortured souls like me have had more than one.

Klassen's ideas about the swing, swing path, ball flight and release (albeit natural) make sense to me.  I went from an 11 to a 5 in one year.  Why?  I hit more fairways.