low-spin (straight) balls counter productive for SnT pattern??

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by dsc123

ditto.

LOL, even my buddies that I play with roll their eyes after a while. I'll talk golf all day, everyday if people will let me!

[dsc123]

Many people I know spend an obscene amount of time on facebook during the work day.  I just told my coworker that this site is my facebook.

[Ernest Jones]

Clubfacebook

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Pretty sure I'm pushing my hips forward much better now which will hopefully take care of the arm extension?

Probably not no. Straight arms is something most people need to practice individually, as the main swing thought. Hips more forward will help out a lot of other pieces though, I agree with you there -- including straighter arms. But it won't "fix" it by itself.

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I'm a little wary of consciously working on that position as things are movin'pretty damn fast at that point.

Use slow motion half swings for all changes you make. You can juggle more swing thoughts, like straight arms, hips forward. Changes are almost impossible to make at full speed.

Without a pair of educated eyes watching you practice, I would suggest filming your practice sessions to see how your feel corresponds to the changes. Quality of contact is misleading when making changes. My first good swing change that I made was a cold shank, but on video, it was confirmed that I was actually changing my swing for the better.

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Would you say that this is something that will fix itself if I get some of the earlier stuff happening properly? IE: sliding hips and good right footwork?

Again, a correct hip slide and subsequent side-tilt that will result will improve a lot of other pieces, but those need to be refined individually at the practice tee too at some point.

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

The way I was hitting them last week at the dome felt pretty good. They were very long and felt like they were compressing big time (made an awesome sound anyway) - still a fair amount of pushes but they felt very solid none the less.

You may need to feel more palmar flexion to end this push problem you have, as Erik speculated on in the convo you two had in the Biggest Secret thread. Palmar flexion is a great piece many players need to add, but it will bring pull-hooks into play without the proper hip slide to accompany it.

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I know feel isn't real but the sound the impact makes should be a fairly reliable indicator of the quality of the impact no?

I'm going to say no. I love hearing that pro sound too, but I would say you shouldn't be worrying about the sound at impact.

What's so difficult about making changes and improving is picking one piece to work on and sticking with it. Then you have to be able to know when it's time to move on. What your priority piece is right now, I'm not 100% sure on since I'm obviously not a teacher, but my guess is that your downswing priority piece is getting more weight forward (hip slide) and working on getting the hands more ahead of the ball (palmar flexion).

Using that weight-forward, hit and stop drill Erik posted on Youtube (and I reposted on this thread) is good to work on both those pieces. You're definitely going to struggle practicing it, so be warned that shanks, fats, thins, and big push fades are going to be in your immediate future on the practice range. Try to film the session if you can.

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Clubfacebook

Hehe, this is my facebook too. I haven't logged into facebook in five years.

[Ernest Jones]

Thanks Jetfan. I've been searching around on the forum for more descriptions on palmar flexion but haven't found anything yet. Gonna have to breakdown and buy the SnT book soon. And a good camera . Ultimately I need to find more time for range work, it doesn't do much good sitting around thinking about what I need to do (although I think it does more good than most people realize!)

[JetFan1983]

These are from two posts I wrote last year. The first is from July 2011. The second is from a few weeks ago. The first post was a response to MBD in a discussion about Ben Hogan's so-called "secret." I was pointing out some inconsistencies and misnomers in his book Five Lessons .

It's a great move, but the weight has to be forward for this to work correctly, or else you'll hit pull hooks all day. If you do have the weight forward though, and you fight a push, this piece will help a lot.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

By supinating the left wrist, the club face is opened more at impact; an anti-hook move.

Incorrect. Hogan is incorrectly using the term "supination" here. This is much of where his so-called "secret" comes from, I think. What he's actually referring to here is palmar flexion -- the bending back of the left wrist through the downswing and hitting area. It is defined as "the decreasing of the angle between the palm and the forearm."

The correct definition of supination in the forearm is "when the palm faces anteriorly, or faces up (when the arms are unbent and at the sides)." So supination here for Hogan means both supination and palmar flexion. The supination occurs when the lead arm rotates. But he forgot to add the palmar flexion part.

Palmar flexion (what he's actually referring to) shuts the face of the clubhead -- it doesn't open it -- it allows the hands to be ahead at impact. Its one of the moves that contributes to creating draw or hook spin. It increases ball compression...I could go on and on here over the good things it does for you.

Example 1: Dustin Johnson at the top of his backswing with extreme palmar flexion. His clubface is dead shut.

Picture Two here is an example of a golfer doing the opposite -- dorsiflexion of the lead wrist -- or "cupping" in golf terms -- is defined by modern medicine as "when the angle between the back (dorsum) of hand and the forearm is reduced." This opens the club face. Its extremely useful if you're hitting an explosion shot of some kind.

The clubface here is wide open. If these wrist angles are maintained through impact, the golfer will be flipping at the ball with a severely open face. This produces a push or push fade with minimal compression.

Re: cupping. I sort of understated how good cupping can be for a good player who fights a hook or over-draw. A lot of great players cup at the top of the backswing for this reason, including Hogan.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Quote:

Originally Posted by sk golf

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Tin Man

According to the DVD set "The Ben Hogan Collection" Hogan wrote "Power Golf" alone.  The DVD set has clean slow motion swings (not on You Tube...yet) that show Hogan's head dip and a relaxed right elbow. Things that are not in the book.

I totally agree.  If you watch quality video, Hogan doesn't always do what he says he is doing in the book.

I'm surprised not a single person has mentioned this yet on this thread, but Hogan also incorrectly used the term "supination" in the book too. Take this excerpt for example:

You can see in this bottom drawing that highlights the above drawing of the entire motion that the wrist is "palmar flexing" -- not supinating.

"Supination" is just the forearm rolling over. A wrist can't supinate.

Anyway, who knows how much of a difference this would have made had he gotten this part 100% correct, if any. Pretty much all high-handicappers though need to know what palmar flexion of the wrist is so they can stop flipping and trying to "release the club."

So in conclusion, "supination" for Ben Hogan in this book means a combination of palmar flexion and the correct definition of supination. Sure, if you over-do this you'll hit hooks; however, I find it far more likely that you'll hit hooks because the golfer is overdoing the supination part -- not the palmar flexion part. And if you combine it with adequate "hip bump," a centered head, the correct amount of an inside-out path, and a clubface open enough to the target line to push it before it draws, you'll be able to play good golf.

I've said this before in previous posts, but it seems like I should just post it here since those other threads I wrote on have since disappeared into the void forever.

I still like Ben Hogan a lot as a teacher though, even if I'm criticizing here. I think if he were alive today he would revise a lot of his writings.

EDIT:

I just wanted to add one more quoted past convo between Erik, James Hirshfield and myself about palmar flexion from Erik's My Swing thread:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

+1 on this. The community needs an official thread on this IMO. I mention it a lot, but it doesn't have the same effect as it does coming from a pro. Hopefully you get some free time to write it out sometime.

Could you and Michael trouble yourselves to tell me exactly what you mean? What do you want to see?

Nothing too specific from me. Perhaps just how it relates to the whole sham of "releasing the club" and why that doesn't actually work or happen with good players. How it closes the face relative to the path quite a bit, so swinging out to the right will produce a draw and not a bad push-fade or something; how it really gets the shaft leaning forward if you're a player who struggles with that.... I think high-handicap members would benefit the most from a thread on palmar flexion, although not exclusively.

Perhaps also how you have to push the hips forward so  you don't hit straight-over-draws and pull-draws? Just spit ballin.

Originally Posted by james_hirshfield

You did a pretty good job there explaining it yourself JetFan :)

if the hips dont slide, the golfer will only turn and return into flexion, shifting the left arm out. Unless the golfer uncocks the club or palmar flexes, the golfer will hit across the ball. Even with uncocking the club and/or palmar flexing, the geometry changes and maximum compensations have to be made in the shortest amount of time. Something 99% of golfers are unable to do. SOME can... these are the elite few. Just my .2p

James

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

These are from two posts I wrote last year. The first is from July 2011. The second is from a few weeks ago. The first post was a response to MBD in a discussion about Ben Hogan's so-called "secret." I was pointing out some inconsistencies and misnomers in his book Five Lessons.

It's a great move, but the weight has to be forward for this to work correctly, or else you'll hit pull hooks all day. If you do have the weight forward though, and you fight a push, this piece will help a lot.

Re: cupping. I sort of understated how good cupping can be for a good player who fights a hook or over-draw. A lot of great players cup at the top of the backswing for this reason, including Hogan.

I still like Ben Hogan a lot as a teacher though, even if I'm criticizing here. I think if he were alive today he would revise a lot of his writings.

EDIT:

I just wanted to add one more quoted past convo between Erik, James Hirshfield and myself about palmar flexion from Erik's My Swing thread:

That really resonates with me. Instinctively I think I knew I needed to do this but I was getting confused by other things such as Clampett's emphasis on FLAT left wrist. Also, I've never hit a hook in my life so I was always wary of Hogan stuff as I've heard that a lot of his swing was design to combat a hook.

I will work on this piece and see how it affects ball flight and general flippy-ness.

A big Cheers on this one