My Swing (DanielJTIll)

[DanielJTill]

Yes the advice pointed out my different posture one thing that confuses me is, that if I'm a 2 plane swinger then working on a steep shoulder plane would only make me come to the ball at a steeper angle right? Where as in my swing my shoulders provide the rotation and the arms the lift. I'm not completely 100% I'm right there but if someone could confirm one way or another that would be great.

I watched a seminar with Jim hardy last night, that kinda made things clearer, you see when i work on a steeper shoulder plane I'm just digging holes, is there something else i need to change in order to not do this, ie, less lift with the arms therefore changing my whole swing to one plane, isn't that a bit drastic?

I'm only trying to learn sorry if i'm sounding dismissive.

[colin007]

if youre coming in too steep then a great way to shallow out your angle of attack is to push your hips towards the target.  this has a way of lengthening the bottom of the swing and allowing the clubhead to come in on a shallower AoA.

as far as the shoulder angle, it needs to be steeper so that it can be closer to being perpendicular to the initial spine angle that you set up with.  this is the most efficient way to swing, so that youre swinging around a central pivot point and not introducing different angles into the equation.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by DanielJTill

Yes the advice pointed out my different posture one thing that confuses me is, that if I'm a 2 plane swinger then working on a steep shoulder plane would only make me come to the ball at a steeper angle right? Where as in my swing my shoulders provide the rotation and the arms the lift. I'm not completely 100% I'm right there but if someone could confirm one way or another that would be great.

No, your instinct is correct over what some of us are advocating here. I'm changing you to a one-plane swing. If you don't want to do that, then yea, you should keep your flat shoulder turn and high hands.

Originally Posted by DanielJTill

I watched a seminar with Jim hardy last night, that kinda made things clearer, you see when i work on a steeper shoulder plane I'm just digging holes, is there something else i need to change in order to not do this, ie, less lift with the arms therefore changing my whole swing to one plane, isn't that a bit drastic?

I'm only trying to learn sorry if i'm sounding dismissive.

It's good to be skeptical.

And yes, there is one more fix here concerning your backswing. You can't keep lifting your arms when you change to a steeper shoulder turn. Essentially, the angle of the arms at the top of the backswing should match the angle of the shoulders, with less lifting of the arms.

The backswing works in three dimensions with a one-plane swing: back, up, and in. You need more in and less up. The hand path on the backswing of a one-plane swing should end when the hands are about 4 to 6 inches behind the right shoulder, not high above it. The right elbow is tucked more to the torso, not coming off of it and separating from the body. It won't be completely tucked, but it will be a lot closer to it. A drill that students often get to make this change is putting a tee under the right armpit and not letting it fall out on the backswing.

But you can certainly keep your two plane swing if you like. A lot of legends of the game have played this way. It's just that eventually you have to get back onto the plane on the downswing to hit the ball well and that can be difficult to do consistently. The legends of the game who use a two-plane swing have learned over time to make this work for them. Feel free to keep it if you like. A lot of ams use it and play well with it.

However I don't believe this is a drastic change for you. It's certainly a significant change, but it's not like you've been a two-plane swinger for twenty years here. But yea, if you want to keep the steeper shoulder turn, you'd have to have less lifting of the arms.

Here's a thread you should check out: Deep Hands Explained

But yea, your instinct is correct that there is another piece here involved with steeper shoulders. Going to a one-plane swing will take the steepness out of impact right now, assuming the golfer is also pushing his hips forward correctly on the downswing so the swing can maintain a shallow approach.

The regular pros who post here are teachers of a one-plane, centered pivot, which is why you'll tend to see more tips related to this than two-plane movements. A lot of people find the one-plane swing to be a more efficient way to play. Not everyone agrees on that.

One thing that I will say though is that a flatter shoulder turn makes it harder to stay centered. There is usually some inevitable head movement away from the target on the backswing when the shoulders turn on a flatter angle and that will bring a bit more of a timing element into the equation. You'd have to time the movement forward again on the downswing in an equal amount, and that too can lead to inconsistent contact.

Originally Posted by bruce

Wow,i'm really impressed JetFan1983 at how much time you put into helping somebody,thats great pointers your handing out.DanielJTill i would definitely take heed of what JetFan1983

is advising you about your shoulder angle.

I appreciate that, Bruce. What's kind of funny is I'm learning to be more minimalist with the tip giving. If you read some of the other posts I've made on other swing threads, I tended to go over-board with the information for the sake of the student being able to see "the big picture." I would give a handful of tips that all inter-related to each other and then went out of my way to explain how they worked together while at the same time pointing out the most important 1 or 2 tips they should focus on. Now I'm just omitting giving the 3 or 4 inter-related tips and just giving the 1 or 2 that I think to be important. I'm not always right, but hopefully, the more I do this, the better I get at it. This stuff is fun for me. I'm sure the rest of you guys on the thread will agree that it's fun to participate in My Swing Threads.

I'm disappointed in myself when I give bad tips, but at the same time, I'm grateful to learn the correct information when it arises so I don't make that mistake again.

[DanielJTill]

Great response jetfan, thanks for clearing that up, still in two minds of whether to change or not, i know that having worked my swing up again after having lessons about 3 months ago (which did not help) if i make such a change it will mean another 2 or 3 months of practicing and frustration, 3 steps backwards to take 4 forward kind of thing. I'm not sure if i am ready for that right now, one thing i noticed today that i was taking my hands back way too much on the inside, causing some swings to go over the top. When i worked on taking the club back more n plane the finish of my back-swing was much higher with the hands and the ball striking was very consistent and at least 30 yards further at the range going 250 + (with range balls).

How would i go about taking the club back on plane with a shallow arm plane, that may sound confusing or obvious, but in my head it doesn't quite make sense. You may think just keep the arms on plane but the feeling i get when i do stay on plane is of the arms raising. Will the steeper shoulder turn steepen the arm swing therefore putting the club on plane, basically this new found feeling of plane will be discarded and i will have to find a new sense of on plane.

Sorry for the over use of the word PLANE

[sean_miller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielJTill

. . . I'm sure the rest of you guys on the thread will agree that it's fun to participate in My Swing Threads.

I agree wholeheartedly and I suspect we all learn a bit about our own swings (the good and the bad) reading about others'.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by DanielJTill

if i make such a change it will mean another 2 or 3 months of practicing and frustration, 3 steps backwards to take 4 forward kind of thing. I'm not sure if i am ready for that right now

I doubt it would take 2-3 months to make this change. True, any change takes longer without a good instructor to help you, but I doubt it takes 2-3 months. Honestly, you won't know how long a change will take to make until you try it.

If you want to see how it may work for you, just put a tee under your right armpit during your next range session and don't let it fall out during the backswing. Hit balls doing that and see what happens. Maybe film this and post it to discuss it.

Some people say that it feels like they are swinging their arms around their belt line when trying to get more hand depth and less lifting. The hands almost move inward immediately when you turn your shoulders steeper. It's important to note that the clubhead stays outside the hands when doing this. The forearms don't roll the clubhead behind them on the takeaway.

Again, if you don't like how it changes, that's fine too. Honestly, changes are hard to make without a teacher there for at least the first session to walk you through it. But it would be interesting to see you film yourself doing this drill and then hearing your observations of how it changed things for you, good and bad.

[DanielJTill]

I think thats a good idea, if i give it an honest try say hit 100 balls that way, i can then make a better decision, so is that all i need to do to change to a 1 plane? or have i got to make sure the shoulder angle is steeper, steeper than the second video of me with the s wedge? Also what would be the best club to practice this drill? Any other tips?

Well i am playing a round tomorrow and wont be at the range until sunday but will give it a try then.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by DanielJTill

I think thats a good idea, if i give it an honest try say hit 100 balls that way, i can then make a better decision, so is that all i need to do to change to a 1 plane?

Pretty much the only technical difference between a one plane and two plane swing is this: in a one plane swing, the angle of the arms at the top of the backswing matches the angle of the shoulders. In a two plane swing, these two angles do not match. Obviously, this brings more differences into play as a result of these two planes being different or the same, but when you boil it down, that's the literal difference.

One thing I will add though is that the right arm should not flex beyond 90 degrees on the backswing, and feeling a straight right arm going back can be a big power source. The reason I'm mentioning this is doing the tee-under-the-right-armpit drill may lead to over-flexing of the right arm. I probably don't need to mention this.

Originally Posted by DanielJTill

or have i got to make sure the shoulder angle is steeper, steeper than the second video of me with the s wedge? Also what would be the best club to practice this drill? Any other tips?

Well i am playing a round tomorrow and wont be at the range until sunday but will give it a try then.

I was just looking at your latest video and there is head movement away from the target on the backswing. Granted, you have a really good downswing for someone who hasn't been playing very long. Have you checked out the thread on the centered pivot yet? It relates to the steeper shoulders, and the other stuff we're talking about.

I'd probably start with a shorter iron, but it shouldn't really matter which club you choose.

Yea, give it a try during a practice session. Film the tee-under-the-right-armpit drill and note the changes in contact, divot depth, and ball flight, if any. Share your thoughts, good or bad, and post a clip.

And definitely just play your game during your upcoming round and don't think about this stuff . And in the end, you may find that you like the two-plane swing more. You'll just have to see.

[colin007]

do some work with a mirror.  itll be easy to see if your arms match your shoulders.