Lift, clean and place

[Mordan]

At my club "winter rules" are in play normally for about 4 months, and it seems that once they're put in place they stay until removed in the spring.

Because of this we don't need to check if they're in play before starting our round, and they don't even both to write up the full rule on the board, it just says "winter rules". I'm guessing that technically they should actually write the full local rule, but they don't do that for whatever reason.

My understanding is that the rule is that you may lift, clean and place anywhere through the green mown to fairway height or lower, and that you may place within 6 inches no nearer the hole.

So my question is if I'm on the fringe and by moving 6 inches to the side (obviously no nearer the hole) I can place my ball on the green, is that allowed?

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Mordan

At my club "winter rules" are in play normally for about 4 months, and it seems that once they're put in place they stay until removed in the spring.

Because of this we don't need to check if they're in play before starting our round, and they don't even both to write up the full rule on the board, it just says "winter rules". I'm guessing that technically they should actually write the full local rule, but they don't do that for whatever reason.

My understanding is that the rule is that you may lift, clean and place anywhere through the green mown to fairway height or lower, and that you may place within 6 inches no nearer the hole.

So my question is if I'm on the fringe and by moving 6 inches to the side (obviously no nearer the hole) I can place my ball on the green, is that allowed?

Hi Mordan,

There are no such things as "Winter Rules" under the Rules of Golf.  There are "local rules" under the rules of golf, but they have limitations also.  As to your specific question, you would have to ask your Pro or whoever is in charge to get a clarification.

Regards,

John

[Fourputt]

What the OP is asking aobut is the "Preferred Lies" local rule.  Note the sentence I put in bold.  When properly implemented, this local rule should not be set up as a blanket condition.  It should be switched on or off as conditions warrant.  Just because grass is dormant and conditions are less than pristine is not a reason to use this local rule.

b. “Preferred Lies” and “Winter Rules”

Adverse conditions, including the poor condition of the course or the existence of mud, are sometimes so general, particularly during winter months, that the Committee may decide to grant relief by temporary Local Rule either to protect the course or to promote fair and pleasant play. The Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as the conditions warrant.

And the recommended wording for such a local rule:

c. “Preferred Lies” and “Winter Rules”

Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25 and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.

However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When such conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes “preferred lies” or “winter rules” would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended:

“A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green (or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole) may be lifted, without penalty, and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within (specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.) of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it is placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

If the player fails to mark the position of the ball before lifting it or moves the ball in any other manner, such as rolling it with a club, he incurs a penalty of one stroke.

Note: “Closely mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

*PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:

Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

*If a player incurs the general penalty for a breach of this Local Rule, no additional penalty under the Local Rule is applied.”

[Dormie1360]

Thanks Rick, I did not know the term "winter rules" was used in the Appendix. Looks like the OP can not go from the fringe to the green.

I'm curious if there is a seasonal golf season for posting scores where the OP is playing and the "winter rules" condition coincides with the off season.  Here in KY we don't post from Nov - Feb.  At my club we don't bother posting any local rules during the off season.  No tournaments and scores don't count for handicaps, so it's just up to individuals on how they are going to play.

Regards,

John

[Mordan]

Thanks to you both for your responses.

I will ask the office for clarification but I'm guessing that we do follow the recommended local rule and that we cannot place the ball on the green. However by that wording I understand that we can move the ball closer to the green (but not the hole) and thus putt over less fringe. Whilst I do appreciate why the recommendation would be to only have the rule at certain times, I think a case can be made for why we have it throughout the winter as one of the features of my club is that it is playable in nearly all conditions, without temporary tees or greens but that you are at risk of mud on your ball off some fairways even without really recent rain during winter.

I'm in the UK, and so we use the CONGU handicap system and so there is no "posting season" or the like. If you're not aware, one of the major differences is that only rounds played in "qualifying" competitions count towards our handicaps. So if rules are put in place that contravene the rules of golf the competition is considered "non qualifying" and doesn't affect your handicap. But winter rules are allowed and thus competitions played under that local rule can count towards our handicaps.

[Dormie1360]

Your right about being able to move the ball closer to the green in some cases.

I'm unfamiliar with the CONGU system. If you don't play in these competitions you don't have a handicap, is this correct?  What does the recreational golfer do?

I do like the emphasis on competitive rounds.  At our club we've developed a "tournament handicap" or index that we you use for all our club's tournaments.  We use our USGA index and adjust based on tournament scores played at our club during the past 12 months.  It's similar to the USGA's Reduced Index for exceptional tournament play, but ours has a little more teeth in it.

Regards,
John

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Your right about being able to move the ball closer to the green in some cases.

What might be the case when it is allowed to place the ball closer to the hole than where it lay? I'm curious.

Edit: Sorry, I misread 'closer to the hole'. Of course closer to the green is possible.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Mordan

My understanding is that the rule is that you may lift, clean and place anywhere through the green mown to fairway height or lower, and that you may place within 6 inches no nearer the hole.

Lower than fairway height? You mean fringe? The correct term is 'closely mown area' and this includes the fringe (or apron, whichever term you prefer) but not the green.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

I'm unfamiliar with the CONGU system. If you don't play in these competitions you don't have a handicap, is this correct?  What does the recreational golfer do?

I do like the emphasis on competitive rounds.  At our club we've developed a "tournament handicap" or index that we you use for all our club's tournaments.  We use our USGA index and adjust based on tournament scores played at our club during the past 12 months.  It's similar to the USGA's Reduced Index for exceptional tournament play, but ours has a little more teeth in it.

Regards,

John

If you don't play in competitions then you won't have a handicap, that's correct. So if you're not a member of a recognised club you can't have a CONGU handicap.

Within the club, members are encouraged to play at least the minimum 3 competitions a year required to keep a current handicap and most play more than 3. There are competitions most weekends over summer and at least monthly over winter. And because they're competition rounds, all cards are signed by another member.

So it's pretty hard to sandbag, but it does make the handicaps slow to adjust, especially for the improving golfer or the golfer no longer hitting the ball quite as far as they used to.

The other major difference with CONGU compared to the USGA method is that our handicaps are based on adjustments rather than the rolling modified average. So have a good round and you get cut 0.x points, have a bad round and you go back up 0.1.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Lower than fairway height? You mean fringe? The correct term is 'closely mown area' and this includes the fringe (or apron, whichever term you prefer) but not the green.

Hence why I think they really should be writing the full local rule up on the board rather than just "winter rules", because I'm not sure of the exact wording we use. But that does sound familiar, although if I didn't know better I'd think the green was a "closely mown area".

[QuazerSKITS]

I’m from the UK and we too are currently using “preferred lies” and winter tees/mats which constitute our winter golf rules.

For preferred lies the local ruling is as follows;

"A ball at rest on a closely mown area (i.e. fairway or green fringe) may be lifted, cleaned and then placed within 6 inches of its resting point that is no nearer to the hole. A ball lying in a first cut or rough must be played as it lies. A ball that is plugged in the rough may be lifted, cleaned and then dropped within one club length no nearer to the hole."

To answer your original question, as far as I am aware you can move you ball onto the green from the fringe if it is within 6 inches and is no nearer the hole. If you wanted you could lift, clean and place the ball from the fairway and place it back into the rough if you prefer. In what cut the ball lies in after you have lifted, cleaned and placed is irrelevant as long as the ball is not resting any nearer the hole and within 6 inches of where it was originally resting (obviously you cant place a ball in a hazard). This is my interpretation of the rule but is the agreed ruling between my fellow golfers.

As for our handicap system, it’s the same as you. We use CONGU handicaps. Since the winter rules have been in place all competitions have been non-counting apart from the Monthly Medals which are counting. Problem with that is that because of the winter tee’s the standard scratch is 67, so you have to shoot a nett 67 to not get 0.1 back. Obviously a lot  of the low handicap players are moaning about that because it means someone who plays off 4 has to shoot a 71 (level par) just to make standard scratch and not get 0.1 back.

We also just had a handicap review when the handicap committee look at the scores over the last 6 months and adjust your handicap according. Do you have this at your club?

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Mordan

Hence why I think they really should be writing the full local rule up on the board rather than just "winter rules", because I'm not sure of the exact wording we use. But that does sound familiar, although if I didn't know better I'd think the green was a "closely mown area".

It sure is a closely mown area but in the recommended Local Rule wording it says 'closely mown area through the green', hence greens are excluded.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by QuazerSKITS

I’m from the UK and we too are currently using “preferred lies” and winter tees/mats which constitute our winter golf rules.

For preferred lies the local ruling is as follows;

"A ball at rest on a closely mown area (i.e. fairway or green fringe) may be lifted, cleaned and then placed within 6 inches of its resting point that is no nearer to the hole. A ball lying in a first cut or rough must be played as it lies. A ball that is plugged in the rough may be lifted, cleaned and then dropped within one club length no nearer to the hole."

To answer your original question, as far as I am aware you can move you ball onto the green from the fringe if it is within 6 inches and is no nearer the hole.

Pls. read the post #3 by Fourputt. There it is said that you cannot place your ball onto the green if it originally lies outside the green. This makes a lot of sense as you never can get onto the green for free, i.e. without penalty or making a stroke.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Mordan

If you don't play in competitions then you won't have a handicap, that's correct. So if you're not a member of a recognised club you can't have a CONGU handicap.

Within the club, members are encouraged to play at least the minimum 3 competitions a year required to keep a current handicap and most play more than 3. There are competitions most weekends over summer and at least monthly over winter. And because they're competition rounds, all cards are signed by another member.

So it's pretty hard to sandbag, but it does make the handicaps slow to adjust, especially for the improving golfer or the golfer no longer hitting the ball quite as far as they used to.

IMO it is very easy to sandbag. Play 20 rounds below your hancidap and leave only 3 cards and you hcp might be e.g. 15 while it should be 8. That is the most common form of sandbagging in CONGU and EGA system. The other is not putting in any cards, especially those way over your hcp in order to keep your hcp lower than it actually should. Some people cannot deal with the thing that they are not playing as well as they did 25 years ago. In competitions cards are automatically registrated but those who want to sandbag they avoid all competitions they a) will not win for sure, or b) has poor prizes.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

IMO it is very easy to sandbag. Play 20 rounds below your hancidap and leave only 3 cards and you hcp might be e.g. 15 while it should be 8. That is the most common form of sandbagging in CONGU and EGA system. The other is not putting in any cards, especially those way over your hcp in order to keep your hcp lower than it actually should. Some people cannot deal with the thing that they are not playing as well as they did 25 years ago. In competitions cards are automatically registrated but those who want to sandbag they avoid all competitions they a) will not win for sure, or b) has poor prizes.

There's not really much scope for "choosing" which cards you submit. You have to register for the competition before you start, and you must return your card at the end so unless whoever is marking your card is in on it too or if you deliberately hit poor shots to inflate your score I'm not sure how you can artificially inflate your handicap.

What you're referring to seems to me to be something that can occur in a system where the golfer submits "social" rounds towards their handicap, which we do not.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by QuazerSKITS

I’m from the UK and we too are currently using “preferred lies” and winter tees/mats which constitute our winter golf rules.

As for our handicap system, it’s the same as you. We use CONGU handicaps. Since the winter rules have been in place all competitions have been non-counting apart from the Monthly Medals which are counting. Problem with that is that because of the winter tee’s the standard scratch is 67, so you have to shoot a nett 67 to not get 0.1 back. Obviously a lot  of the low handicap players are moaning about that because it means someone who plays off 4 has to shoot a 71 (level par) just to make standard scratch and not get 0.1 back.

We also just had a handicap review when the handicap committee look at the scores over the last 6 months and adjust your handicap according. Do you have this at your club?

We're lucky and never have to go to winter mats at my club due to having good soil and drainage.

We're also lucky that our white tees are par 72 SSS 72 and our yellow (winter and vets) tees are par 72 SSS 71 so even in winter you don't feel like you're always behind the game in terms of the SSS/CSS.

And we do also have a handicap review each year, which has just been done at my club. I thought I would probably get cut a shot or two due to recent good results and my handicap not really keeping up with my improvement but I didn't. It seemed to mostly just be giving an extra shot or two to the older players who can no longer play to their handicaps as age catches up with them.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Mordan

There's not really much scope for "choosing" which cards you submit. You have to register for the competition before you start, and you must return your card at the end so unless whoever is marking your card is in on it too or if you deliberately hit poor shots to inflate your score I'm not sure how you can artificially inflate your handicap.

What you're referring to seems to me to be something that can occur in a system where the golfer submits "social" rounds towards their handicap, which we do not.

So for you only competition scores are accepted? Odd.

[Dormie1360]

Interesting.  Unlike the states, I'm trying to think when I've seen an event on your side of the pond where the ball is not played down.  Seems like no matter what the weather is for the Open, there would never have been lift, clean, and place.  Having said that I'm a little naive concerning whether in the UK..  I guess your winter months are much more wet than summer, and your grass does go dormant or at least doesn't grow much .