Are most amateur golfers being mislead on how to swing?

[Gresh24]

Patrick, you obviously have a very hard time communicating.  Every thread you start, you do so with the expectation of being a contrarian.  Then, when people do disagree, you act like a child.  It's grown very tiresome...

It is no coincidence that almost no one agrees with you, no one really knows what you are posting and why and questions your motives, and that many have a problem with your style of (inability to) communicate.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Mordan

Patrick, I think the problem is that after 14 pages most of us still don't understand what you're saying. You just keep talking about a "natural swing", and haven't answered any of the questions posed to you. You just keep saying the same things, phrased slightly differently, like that's going to help us but it isn't.

Your example of how you'd start a session to help someone slicing was the first time I had any insight at all to what you mean in this thread. If all you've been trying to say is that you don't agree that sitting someone in front of a slow motion video of a pro and saying "swing like that", or telling someone to aim for a 8.5 degree shaft lean forward is going to help then I think most people would agree with you.

If you spent a little less time posting, and a little more reading you'd see that most of the swing help people receives follows a basic pattern of analysing a video (slow motion helps), then often providing a model example of what the person should try and achieve (mostly using a pro as they're good examples!), and then some suggestions of feelings or drills the person can try that might help them achieve the desired result. Is this the pattern you're so against?

I read every reply individually and try to answer it fully.

My argument discusses how golfers, at the amateur level, are being mislead as to the physical capabilities required for the swing model that is being taught. The golf swing at the top level is a very physically/athletically demanding movement that requires 1,000's of hours of work to become efficient or even repeatable. Most mistakes stem from trying to emulate this swing model.

That's my point in a nutshell and I try not to diverse.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I read every reply individually and try to answer it fully.

My argument discusses how golfers, at the amateur level, are being mislead as to the physical capabilities required for the swing model that is being taught. The golf swing at the top level is a very physically/athletically demanding movement that requires 1,000's of hours of work to become efficient or even repeatable. Most mistakes stem from trying to emulate this swing model.

That's my point in a nutshell and I try not to diverse.

Ok, well then you're not going to get agreement from me. I'd say that (with some notable exceptions) the pro's swings are the most effeicient and most repeatable of all swings. That's why the hit the ball the furthest, and the most consistently.

I'd never say I was just trying to "swing like a pro" but trying to achieve the elements of their swings that allow them to be efficient and repeatable seems a very logical way to go about things to me. Why would I not want to make whatever steps I could towards the most efficient and repeatable swing I can?

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

Patrick, you obviously have a very hard time communicating.  Every thread you start, you do so with the expectation of being a contrarian.  Then, when people do disagree, you act like a child.  It's grown very tiresome...

It is no coincidence that almost no one agrees with you, no one really knows what you are posting and why and questions your motives, and that many have a problem with your style of (inability to) communicate.

I act like a child! I think you need to grow up. I discuss golf at every level and have never been told to my face that I act like a child. I have no problem with structured disagreement, but unstructured disagreement grows tiresome on my soul. But I continue the discussion because occasionally some structure shows its face. I have learned some interesting points on this thread and I for one have listened to most comments, agreeing with some any having a different opinion on others. I have also rarely stooped to name calling.

[Gresh24]

Quote:

I act like a child! I think you need to grow up. I discuss golf at every level and have never been told to my face that I act like a child. I have no problem with structured disagreement, but unstructured disagreement grows tiresome on my soul. But I continue the discussion because occasionally some structure shows its face. I have learned some interesting points on this thread and I for one have listened to most comments, agreeing with some any having a different opinion on others. I have also rarely stooped to name calling.

But you did stoop to name calling.  Early and often - calling a moderator a sarcastic clown to name one.   You dug yourself a huge hole and, yes, established yourself as a very immature poster.  Continue to deny it and blame everyone else for your time in the penalty box and the fact that many have a problem with you, and pissing and moaning about people disagreeing with you.  It's working well for you...

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

My argument discusses how golfers, at the amateur level, are being mislead as to the physical capabilities required for the swing model that is being taught. The golf swing at the top level is a very physically/athletically demanding movement that requires 1,000's of hours of work to become efficient or even repeatable. Most mistakes stem from trying to emulate this swing model.

Even on the champions tour?  Those guys are certainly still above average for 50+, but I'd think that anyone in their 30s could stand to swing like them.  Moreover, this really belies a false premise that the pros swings aren't biomechanically sound and that they are doing weird contortions that require 1,000s of hours to become repeatable and that shouldn't be attempted by any but the most flexible and athletically capable.  A pro swing is easier on the body.  A pro swing is less dependent on timing.  That sounds like it takes less athleticism, not more.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

Quote:

But you did stoop to name calling.  Early and often - calling a moderator a sarcastic clown to name one.   You dug yourself a huge hole and, yes, established yourself as a very immature poster.  Continue to deny it and blame everyone else for your time in the penalty box and the fact that many have a problem with you, and pissing and moaning about people disagreeing with you.  It's working well for you...

The ability to move on and forget past disagreement is a quality that says a lot for a man. Erik, Mike and others have shown this quality and I have promised to try to change my reactions to the posts that brought this out in me. I just wasn't prepared for the way people can talk from behind a monitor.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Even on the champions tour?  Those guys are certainly still above average for 50+, but I'd think that anyone in their 30s could stand to swing like them.  Moreover, this really belies a false premise that the pros swings aren't biomechanically sound and that they are doing weird contortions that require 1,000s of hours to become repeatable and that shouldn't be attempted by any but the most flexible and athletically capable.  A pro swing is easier on the body.  A pro swing is less dependent on timing.  That sounds like it takes less athleticism, not more.

I have a drill - i mention this in the OP - for my students which ensures coil and back swing restriction during the back swing, and very few of them can achieve the 'model swing' back swing position. Most golfers are so involved with getting to this parallel position that they sacrifice many important fundamental conditions to achieve it.

Most commonly lifting the club to the top; letting the left elbow break down, straightening the right leg; over-rotation of the hips and leaving their weight on the target foot, among others. I don't stretch the way I used to and my own swing is well short of what I could achieve earlier. I have certain fundamentals in place that make this coil and restriction a part of the swing that most amateurs bypass to achieve model swing appearances.

There are older/unfit men and women swinging incorrectly because of this model and they are being told that it is correct because it looks right at the top.

The golf swing is athletic and stretching is a big part of most tour pro's schedule.

[Nole77]

I don't understand what you're trying to say.  I've tried to stay objective, tried to read all of your posts, heck, even tried to view your videos...but the only thing I get from all of it, is some sort of sales pitch(not saying you are actually selling something, but that's what the entire things comes off as)?  I also found that you've started this exact thread on at least three different boards, which seems odd to me. Couple that with you posting under aliases to start other threads and it all just seems..disingenuous.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Nole77

I don't understand what you're trying to say.  I've tried to stay objective, tried to read all of your posts, heck, even tried to view your videos...but the only thing I get from all of it, is some sort of sales pitch(not saying you are actually selling something, but that's what the entire things comes off as)?  I also found that you've started this exact thread on at least three different boards, which seems odd to me. Couple that with you posting under aliases to start other threads and it all just seems..disingenuous.

I appreciate the honesty of your opinion. I was penalty boxed, used aliases and also used other sites. I enjoy discussing coaching and have some time at the moment to post before my new season starts up again. The feedback gets my juices flowing for the new season and I can learn from the constructive feedback that occurs occasionally. I'm not selling anything, if someone pops out to Austria for a lesson from me I would be that surprised I do it for free.

[logman]

Well, I'm supporting Patrick, I'm never going to swing a club like a pro, so I make the best of my attributes. I've got strong forearms and wrists so I've made a swing that's short, choppy and fast. I try to make it short,cause I find the longer my swing the more goes wrong. All I'm interested in is the point where I hit the ball. I've got three things on my checklist. Strong grip, weight forward and punch it!!!. It's MY swing, and as far as I.m concerned.......and I think....what Patrick is saying, that's the aim here. Make a swing that's natural for you and perfect it.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by logman

Well, I'm supporting Patrick, I'm never going to swing a club like a pro, so I make the best of my attributes. I've got strong forearms and wrists so I've made a swing that's short, choppy and fast. I try to make it short,cause I find the longer my swing the more goes wrong. All I'm interested in is the point where I hit the ball. I've got three things on my checklist. Strong grip, weight forward and punch it!!!. It's MY swing, and as far as I.m concerned.......and I think....what Patrick is saying, that's the aim here. Make a swing that's natural for you and perfect it.

Yes I agree with you completely and I'm sure what other people say about your natural swing rolls off your back. Do something you are comfortable with and make it repeat and enjoy the game.

But please, for the sake of my standing as a golf expert, do me a favour and don't tell anyone that I told you to swing this way..

checklist. Strong grip, weight forward and punch it!!!.

[EverythingGolf]

I was trying to stay out of this post but I have to tell you this. In 2008 I became a member of  USGTF (united states golf teachers federation) and I took there course in teaching golf. It was a great experience and I enjoyed all the stuff I learned. Last year I join this forum and got my @$$ handed to me! lol...  It wasn't that bad. What I am trying to say is the ball flight laws I was taught were incorrect and Erik (thank you for showing me the light) asked my if the BFL were still incorrect because he had a student in the course as well and he said they were still wrong. So I asked him what he was talking about. We had a long discussion about the subject and he had me read an article about the new (correct) BFL and let me tell you I could not believe what I was reading. It made a lot of sense, if someone his hitting a straight slice (which is what most amateurs hit) that my face is square through impact and all I have to do is fix my path. But I was taught that my face was open at impact and I need to turn my hands over more through impact to square the face. THIS IS A BIG NO NO!!!!!!! I have improved my teaching and play thanks to Erik and this forum. He knows a lot about the golf swing so If you want to learn this game correctly you better listen to what he has to say.

[logman]

Yeah, I know, I know......Strong grip, weight forward and punch!!...I'm thinking that's probably not in the manual but what the hell it's golf .....it's not rocket surgery!! I had a Lesson at my local and shared the range with 4 or 5 willowy 16 year olds that seemed to be practicing their posture....posture? are you serious. anyhow, i had a swing , and.......laughter.....yep...a couple of those young whippersnappers laughed at my golf swing. Slightly embarrassed!!!

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Most commonly lifting the club to the top; letting the left elbow break down, straightening the right leg; over-rotation of the hips and leaving their weight on the target foot, among others. I don't stretch the way I used to and my own swing is well short of what I could achieve earlier. I have certain fundamentals in place that make this coil and restriction a part of the swing that most amateurs bypass to achieve model swing appearances.

So what you're really against is golfers being taught to try and achieve a particular club position at the top of the backswing, with little regard for how they get the club there or the rest of their body position at this point?

You probably won't find too many friends around here with your comments about straightening the right leg, or shifting weight backwards on the backswing but at least they're points that we can have a meaningful debate about.

If you'd been specific about the exactly which parts of "most teaching" you disagreed with from the start then I think this could have been a much more useful thread.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by EverythingGolf

I was trying to stay out of this post but I have to tell you this. In 2008 I became a member of  USGTF (united states golf teachers federation) and I took there course in teaching golf. It was a great experience and I enjoyed all the stuff I learned. Last year I join this forum and got my @$$ handed to me! lol...  It wasn't that bad. What I am trying to say is the ball flight laws I was taught were incorrect and Erik (thank you for showing me the light) asked my if the BFL were still incorrect because he had a student in the course as well and he said they were still wrong. So I asked him what he was talking about. We had a long discussion about the subject and he had me read an article about the new (correct) BFL and let me tell you I could not believe what I was reading. It made a lot of sense, if someone his hitting a straight slice (which is what most amateurs hit) that my face is square through impact and all I have to do is fix my path. But I was taught that my face was open at impact and I need to turn my hands over more through impact to square the face. THIS IS A BIG NO NO!!!!!!! I have improved my teaching and play thanks to Erik and this forum. He knows a lot about the golf swing so If you want to learn this game correctly you better listen to what he has to say.

I'm sure I replied to this post last night. It has probably been withdrawn. As my reply would be the same I can't really repost it.

I will just say this to your closing statement...

"so If you want to learn this game correctly you better listen to what Erik has to say"

I have my own mentors who I follow and have met at least 100 Eriks, each one more convincing than the last. Saying that I do believe Eric has a sound grasp of the game and I am in no way trying to say anything derogatory against him. I have my views he has his and we don't really click, so to say.

How can you suggest that I better listen to someone who disagrees with most of what I believe.

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I'm sure I replied to this post last night. It has probably been withdrawn. As my reply would be the same I can't really repost it.

I will just say this to your closing statement...

"so If you want to learn this game correctly you better listen to what Erik has to say"

I have my own mentors who I follow and have met at least 100 Eriks, each one more convincing than the last. Saying that I do believe Eric has a sound grasp of the game and I am in no way trying to say anything derogatory against him. I have my views he has his and we don't really click, so to say.

How can you suggest that I better listen to someone who disagrees with most of what I believe.

Therein lies the problem.  When you have 2 people arguing over beliefs and both saying, "This is the truth and you better believe what I believe!!" it turns into a fight over who is right and the truth gets lost in the process.  Its like a Christian trying to argue religion with an Atheist.

Clearly you both very strongly believe in your theories on ballflight and the golfswing and thats fine but if neither is willing to budge on their beliefs its never going to be a constructive discussion.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Mordan

So what you're really against is golfers being taught to try and achieve a particular club position at the top of the backswing, with little regard for how they get the club there or the rest of their body position at this point?

If you don't mind I will correct this sentence to what I actually did say...

I claimed that most golfer's create errors in their back swing because they are trying to achieve a model position at the top of the swing. In doing so, they disregard many important conditions for a position that is unattainable for their untrained bodies.

Originally Posted by Mordan

You probably won't find too many friends around here with your comments about straightening the right leg, or shifting weight backwards on the backswing but at least they're points that we can have a meaningful debate about.

I meant completely straightening the right leg but I'm sure most connaisseurs would have got this. Please feel free to debate my points - isn't that what we are doing? -  but not this one, 'shifting weight backwards on the back swing' I have never said this and honestly I can't even start to begin to know what it is supposed to mean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordan

If you'd been specific about the exactly which parts of "most teaching" you disagreed with from the start then I think this could have been a much more useful thread.

There is no better way to describe it other than opposite to the highly developed learning system that was used to learn all basic motor skills. I am sure I have been quite specific on this but I will repeat.

'Outside-in': We look at a student as being an empty vessel and fill that student with info about how to swing, disregarding anything that might already be in there. This would mean refusal to compare golf to previously learned skills. (This is the widespread instructing techniques)

'Inside-out': We look at the student as having experience of motor skills and nurture these skills to help advance learning and development of the golf swing.