What are 'outside-in' and 'inside out' teaching methods?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

If he stays away from magazines etc and continues as I left him he won't. I know he has learned the swing properly because this lesson probably lasted 30 mins and I introduced many more observation drills that straightened out any serious abnormalities.

Call me a cynic, but I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I would definitely add the ability to use NJF effectively to the great instructor category

I wouldn't, and I don't lump my communication style under one label. Different students need vastly different forms of communication.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Anjew

That's not me, that's Pharaoh.

And I must say, comments about a persons weight, very classy. I can't wait for your comment bashing me for underhanded comments directed towards you.

I made these comments in fun and my tone was not underhanded. I'm heavier than Tutankhamun. Don't you know I'm a new man who has been given another chance. You don't have to worry about bashing from my side, not from this man, Sir.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I made these comments in fun and my tone was not underhanded. I'm heavier than Tutankhamun. Don't you know I'm a new man who has been given another chance. You don't have to worry about bashing from my side, not from this man, Sir.

You say that right after making fun of someone's weight. Enough talking about how you're a new man. Walk the walk, don't talk the talk. If it's off-topic, P57, ignore it.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by iacas

Call me a cynic, but I doubt it.

Eric that only tells me that you have never properly used NJF to correct swings. Gotta be tried.

Originally Posted by iacas

I wouldn't, and I don't lump my communication style under one label. Different students need vastly different forms of communication.

Only about 50% of my students can work with NJF and they can only take in in bits and starts. But I can use it in ways they don't know are happening. Of course I use different forms of communication, did you think I spent my whole day giving NJF. I mostly get my students to work in pairs and let them NJF each other, that's even more fun and very effective. I set the simple observation task and they confirm what they saw, heard, felt etc.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Eric that only tells me that you have never properly used NJF to correct swings. Gotta be tried.

Patrick, in case you haven't noticed, I'm pretty happy the way I'm doing things, thank you.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by iacas

Patrick, in case you haven't noticed, I'm pretty happy the way I'm doing things, thank you.

Yes, you have to be picky, there's more than enough rubbish out there. I choose carefully and you obviously do the same.

BTW Good night. I'm off to bed

[Tifosinumerouno]

Okay, I've got to chime in here. Firstly, as someone with ADHD, your posts are very difficult to follow. You must have a worse case of it than I do! That said, I agree with some of your observations. I think there are some built in motor skills that can easily be transferred over to the golf swing with a few tweaks here and there.

One great example is the motion required to throw a medicine ball. When throwing a medicine ball sideways, your hips don't sway way over your back foot. They rotate back, your arms go in, back, and up. On the way down your arms drop passively, going down forward and out, maximizing the centrifugal force, and you "finish" with your weight forward, fully rotated, and with your arms extended. No chicken wing, no hanging back, it's just a natural motion. That said, you don't have to control the face of a medicine ball or time ball/turf contact.

So while I can see how using basic, natural motor skills can be used to demonstrate proper moves to a beginner or to reprogram a problematic golfer, I can't see how someone could progress much past that without some more specific, detailed instruction. Also I don't think that NJF could possibly work for EVERYONE. You have already admitted that there is more than one way to learn, and I would put NJF into that category. It's a way to teach or learn, but not the ONLY way. I personally learn best from seeing someone doing something or having an instructor put me into a good position. In things other than golf, I learn best from seeing things done and then doing them myself.

In summation, while I think you could definitely have a successful teaching program, I don't think your methodology is the BEST way for EVERYONE to learn. Those words are in caps because I do think that it COULD be the best way for SOME people. If you want the people on this site to take you seriously, you need to provide some proof or evidence of your claims other than just your words. I would say Golf is like a religion to most of us, and you're asking us to switch denominations just because you think your church is better! Right you're asking for faith from the skeptical, and those two just don't coalesce.

[teamroper60]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

You seem to disagree that the same sytem is used when infants learn all of the basic motor skills which seems strange. I am glad that you find my posts entertaining but I fear that it is for the wrong reasons.

It appears you have not grasped the concept of basic motor skills and fine motor skills.   Basic motor skills can be learned quickly and with little repetition.    Fine motor skills require a considerable amount of practice.    Obviously, to develop a good golf swing takes quite a bit of practice........    So yes, I disagree with the first sentence.    You are also correct in the second.........

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

You send the film crew and I'll gladly oblige. Could you send me a video of your golf swing so that I can prepare the lesson for you, Tutankhamun.

Don't you have a camera on your mobile?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Oh no! I will need a little longer to prepare than I thought and you'll have to lose at least 20 lbs before you get into one of my teaching videos.

I don't want to have a lesson from you, I am happy with my teacher (my progress is there for all to see). I want to see YOU in action improving one of your students. That's if you really have any.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Tifosinumerouno

Okay, I've got to chime in here. Firstly, as someone with ADHD, your posts are very difficult to follow. You must have a worse case of it than I do!

Thank you for your carefully outlined reply/remarks. I'm off to the doctor to check my condition but I believe I have OCD, my family say that all the time. I've posted over 200 times on this site in just about 2 weeks and that doesn't include my aliases and the fact that half of the time I was barred or penalty boxed.

Originally Posted by Tifosinumerouno

That said, I agree with some of your observations. I think there are some built in motor skills that can easily be transferred over to the golf swing with a few tweaks here and there.

One great example is the motion required to throw a medicine ball.

One of many. I prefer however to throw a small football the way a rugby player does (sideways underarm) unless your aim is to build some muscles. A medicine ball is just too heavy and not a fluid motion like the golf swing.

Originally Posted by Tifosinumerouno

So while I can see how using basic, natural motor skills can be used to demonstrate proper moves to a beginner or to reprogram a problematic golfer, I can't see how someone could progress much past that without some more specific, detailed instruction. Also I don't think that NJF could possibly work for EVERYONE. You have already admitted that there is more than one way to learn, and I would put NJF into that category. It's a way to teach or learn, but not the ONLY way. I personally learn best from seeing someone doing something or having an instructor put me into a good position. In things other than golf, I learn best from seeing things done and then doing them myself.

Golfers who have been exposed to the widespread method of teaching, 'outside-in', must be respected and given their fair share of this type of instruction. However many of my students, including my 17 y.o. daughter, who haven't been exposed to this can be tutored using NFJ for at least 80% of every lesson. My daughter has handicap 3.8 and plays very seldom these days. She still plays however in the low 70's and she is far from being too advanced for more NJF.

Originally Posted by Tifosinumerouno

I personally learn best from seeing someone doing something or having an instructor put me into a good position. In things other than golf, I learn best from seeing things done and then doing them myself.

An NJF lesson for you should be mainly kinaesthetic and visual from what you are telling me.

Originally Posted by Tifosinumerouno

In summation, while I think you could definitely have a successful teaching program, I don't think your methodology is the BEST way for EVERYONE to learn. Those words are in caps because I do think that it COULD be the best way for SOME people. If you want the people on this site to take you seriously, you need to provide some proof or evidence of your claims other than just your words. I would say Golf is like a religion to most of us, and you're asking us to switch denominations just because you think your church is better! Right you're asking for faith from the skeptical, and those two just don't coalesce.

I am not wanting to sell my personal service. I want to be taken seriously like every man but I feel no desire to do anything but verbally explain some alternatives to the widespread method. My proofs are personal but I honestly believe, from my own experiences, that golfers are being dealt a raw deal by the instructional media surrounding this sport. It is however a very strong organisation of people with devout followers who are almost impossible to shift. Strong words but that's how I feel.

I hope I have outline my reply in a way that can be followed and I will work hard to control my OCD.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by teamroper60

It appears you have not grasped the concept of basic motor skills and fine motor skills.   Basic motor skills can be learned quickly and with little repetition.    Fine motor skills require a considerable amount of practice.    Obviously, to develop a good golf swing takes quite a bit of practice........    So yes, I disagree with the first sentence.    You are also correct in the second.........

A baby dear learns to walk and run very quickly - within a couple of hours - but if you think our children learn these skills quickly then I must be missing something. A child learns many gross and fine motor skills in a short period of time but I wouldn't say either of them are learned quickly. Fine motor skills are certainly more precise but at basic level they are learned in similar time frames to gross skills. A professional runner dedicates as much time to the precision he requires for his skill as a professional violinist.

You may think you know this subject but your obnoxious answer above was just plain flawed. I mean,  gross motor skills can be learned quickly and with little repetition, I take it you have never had children or had a chance to witness how every single day of their infancy involves endless repetitions in the process of improving these skills.

So yes, I agree that your seem to have less knowledge on this subject than you led us to believe.  I also find your posts entertaining for the wrong reasons.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I don't want to have a lesson from you, I am happy with my teacher (my progress is there for all to see). I want to see YOU in action improving one of your students. That's if you really have any.

I am not here to promote my business. I am here to discuss this theme. You started this condescending topic and I sarcastically followed your lead. I also didn't waste time using any wisdom in my replies to you.

I say to you, stick with your teacher, he deserves you, and give me some peace.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

that doesn't include my aliases and the fact that half of the time I was barred or penalty boxed.

You were penalty boxed and banned for good reason (lying, rudeness, violating the rules). Now stop mentioning it all the time like you're some poor persecuted soul.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I am not here to promote my business. I am here to discuss this theme. You started this condescending topic and I sarcastically followed your lead. I also didn't waste time using any wisdom in my replies to you.

I say to you, stick with your teacher, he deserves you, and give me some peace.

I was not being condescending, I think we'd all like to see you in action so we can fully understand what you are trying to 'sell' us here. Heard of the expression, "a picture paints a 1,000 words"? So far, you've been all over this forum in various guises claiming to be a great teacher yet no one knows what the hell you are going on about. The first rule of being a good golf instructor is being a good communicator. I sincerely hope you don't communicate with your students in writing.

You are obviously not "wasting wisdom" here as you quite clearly don't have any to share with us.

Have a good day Patrick, Rebecca etc.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I was not being condescending, I think we'd all like to see you in action so we can fully understand what you are trying to 'sell' us here. Heard of the expression, "a picture paints a 1,000 words"? So far, you've been all over this forum in various guises claiming to be a great teacher yet no one knows what the hell you are going on about. The first rule of being a good golf instructor is being a good communicator. I sincerely hope you don't communicate with your students in writing.

You are obviously not "wasting wisdom" here as you quite clearly don't have any to share with us.

Have a good day Patrick, Rebecca etc.

Once again, I enjoy discussing themes on golf instruction with some of the people on this forum and I am selling nothing. The first rule of being a good coach is being able to teach, communication is important but not no.1.

[Precis1on]

To teach you have to have great communication skills, to coach you would need the same.

Anybody can pick up a golf club and swing it inside out. That is a simple basic motor skill.

Moving a small spherical object 150 yards to a small target using a face barely larger than the small spherical object (if you want to get even smaller, the dime-sized sweetspot) is a very precise, and very fine motor skill.

I agree that some teachers automatically force a certain swing pattern on their students. Those are teachers that should be avoided. However, those teachers who work with their students to find their best source of power and translating it to the ball are the ones that should be kept.

I enjoy looking at parts of my swing in slow motion. My transition especially, since that's the last real moment I get before going for the ball. Some teachers don't like using that, and that's fine. But I prefer having that video and Trackman analysis to give me concrete information that I am truly making progress with my swing.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Precis1on

To teach you have to have great communication skills, to coach you would need the same.

Again, to teach, you must have good teaching skills and communication skills are helpful. Many instructors have great communication skills but can't teach for squat.

Originally Posted by Precis1on

Moving a small spherical object 150 yards to a small target using a face barely larger than the small spherical object (if you want to get even smaller, the dime-sized sweetspot) is a very precise, and very fine motor skill.

small spherical object = golf ball

small target = flag/hole

I'd have got this with the usual terms.

Originally Posted by Precis1on

But I prefer having that video and Trackman analysis to give me concrete information that I am truly making progress with my swing.

What they have proved with TrackMan doesn't let you know whether you know anything about your swing.

[Apotheosis]

I think its really ignorant to say Trackman and the new ball flight laws doesn't give you information about your swing.  Thats just very closed minded my friend...