Great lesson over the weekend

[Mr3Wiggle]

I'm having major issues with lateral head movement, as well as a severe flattening of the swing plane at the start of my downswing.  Took a lesson to start the long trek back to solid ball striking.  Surprisingly my backswing was fine.  Swinging down normally right now feels like a huge over the top move, but on camera it's correct.  Such a wierd feeling.  So much easier to strike down on the ball when the club isn't stuck inside.  The guy told me the club was stuck so far inside that the only way to get back to the ball with any sort of decent contact was using a lot of hands.  Now I have to get those hands out of the swing.  The initial results are promising though.  On properly executed swings I get a nice ball that starts left of target and fades back.  I could definitely get used to playing that shot.  I plan on going to the range about 10 times and then scheduling another lesson to see how things are coming.

[carpediem4300]

another case of "feel aint real"

I try telling my buddies htis all the time and all i get is "no, your wrong, im definately doing this and not that",...then i watch them smash a ball into the piens using by doing what they think their not doing, but they actually are doing.

so are you laying it off at the top a little like sergio or alvaro? they have quite decent backswings and then lay it off hard,....as do rickie come to think of it

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

another case of "feel aint real"

I try telling my buddies htis all the time and all i get is "no, your wrong, im definately doing this and not that",...then i watch them smash a ball into the piens using by doing what they think their not doing, but they actually are doing.

so are you laying it off at the top a little like sergio or alvaro? they have quite decent backswings and then lay it off hard,....as do rickie come to think of it

Laying it off very hard.  I have somewhat of an upright backswing and then my left arm drops to almost parallel with the ground right at the start of the downswing.  Right shoulder goes way under coming through.  Club goes way out to the right.  Head moves way right.  It was ugly.

[carpediem4300]

hmm, nothing wrong with laying off, ...i guess its the after effects such as head movement etc,.....

I guess it also depends on contact and shot result,

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

hmm, nothing wrong with laying off, ...i guess its the after effects such as head movement etc,.....

I guess it also depends on contact and shot result,

I was coming so much from the inside that ball first contact was difficult.  It required so much hand manipulation that it was inconsistent.  There would be days I couldn't miss a shot and then there would be days that I didn't feel I could compress the ball at all.  My swing thought right now is, start the ball left of target and bring it back.  When I do it right it feels great.  When I use my hands too much I hit the heel of the club.  Work in progress.

[carpediem4300]

to much from the inside is sorted by harder hip rotation no?

im not trying to contradict your lesson, i just ahve a fascination of how people learn and get from a - b

for me ive always laid the club off going back,...and steepend coming down so sort of the opposite to you,...but the initial lay off going back gets me stuck uber far behind me, and as you said above, if i try to work it left to right, inevitably i strike it well and that happens,...but i still prefer coming from the inside, just not as extremely as i was,...for me the compression is still good and feels natural, but each to there own ig uess haha

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

to much from the inside is sorted by harder hip rotation no?

im not trying to contradict your lesson, i just ahve a fascination of how people learn and get from a - b

for me ive always laid the club off going back,...and steepend coming down so sort of the opposite to you,...but the initial lay off going back gets me stuck uber far behind me, and as you said above, if i try to work it left to right, inevitably i strike it well and that happens,...but i still prefer coming from the inside, just not as extremely as i was,...for me the compression is still good and feels natural, but each to there own ig uess haha

I think what I do would be fine in moderation, but the extreme I'm taking it to makes it tough to be consistent.  Don't get me wrong, I can make decent contact with the move, but when I'm off it can be frustrating.  I played in a tournament last Thursday.  Couldn't compress the ball to save my life.  Everything was a sling shot draw.  I kept the ball in play and scored fine, but every iron was a club or two short (I knew it on the range and I clubbed up) and my drives were all short of where I expected them.  On one par 5 which was slightly uphill (no wind) I thought I smashed one, got up there and it was sitting about 260.  Just no real pop.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

to much from the inside is sorted by harder hip rotation no?

im not trying to contradict your lesson, i just ahve a fascination of how people learn and get from a - b

for me ive always laid the club off going back,...and steepend coming down so sort of the opposite to you,...but the initial lay off going back gets me stuck uber far behind me, and as you said above, if i try to work it left to right, inevitably i strike it well and that happens,...but i still prefer coming from the inside, just not as extremely as i was,...for me the compression is still good and feels natural, but each to there own ig uess haha

All depends - some players with massive amounts of hip rotation come well under plane - we call this having the club stuck behind you. Tiger used to do this and would work constantly on SLOWING DOWN the hip rotation and getting the arm action to speed up.

Would be better to focus on how the club is attacking the ball - your intention of how you hit the ball can be just as important as the movements.

I too am in a laid off position at the top. i shallow the club from this position however. but i shallow it whether im laid off or accross the line or bang on at the top - my brain just likes shallowing the club. This comes from my subconscious intention to swing to the right which comes from my early days of playing where i would sling a massive draw as a junior to try and get maximum distance. I solved this shallowing by working on the intention to swing more left through impact. As a result, I now take it outside the line on the way back, and shallow it ONTO plane with a square path. not pretty but i dont give a S@$t as my ball goes where I want.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

All depends - some players with massive amounts of hip rotation come well under plane - we call this having the club stuck behind you. Tiger used to do this and would work constantly on SLOWING DOWN the hip rotation and getting the arm action to speed up.

Would be better to focus on how the club is attacking the ball - your intention of how you hit the ball can be just as important as the movements.

I too am in a laid off position at the top. i shallow the club from this position however. but i shallow it whether im laid off or accross the line or bang on at the top - my brain just likes shallowing the club. This comes from my subconscious intention to swing to the right which comes from my early days of playing where i would sling a massive draw as a junior to try and get maximum distance. I solved this shallowing by working on the intention to swing more left through impact. As a result, I now take it outside the line on the way back, and shallow it ONTO plane with a square path. not pretty but i dont give a S@$t as my ball goes where I want.

He told me to rotate the shoulders sooner, and to keep my right shoulder higher.  My hips were over active and I was really dropping my right shoulder on the way down.

[Mr3Wiggle]

This swing change is definitely a challenge.  Starting to hit some nice balls that start left of target and fade back.  Head seems more stationary and it's easier to get back to the ball.  Seeing a number of shanks and heel shots when my hands get over active.  Hopefully I'll have something I can take to the course in a couple weeks.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Well I did something stupid.  Decided to go out and play 9 holes with my wife, mid-swing rebuild.  It was also 100 degrees out and we teed off at 11am.  I was hitting the balls better on the range.  Although I was still experiencing some occasional shanks.  Got out on the course and I had no clue where the ball was going to go.  No clue whatsoever.  Then came the dreaded shank.  Made a correction on the next tee and drilled one down the middle, thought I'd figured it out, when I hit a really nice sandwedge with a beautiful divot a hole later.  Then the wheels came off.  Became a complete shank machine.  We're talking every shot.  I ended up stopping and just riding along with my wife as she finished up.

Still working on keeping my head more forward (and stationary) during the swing.  Still trying to eliminate my really hard lay off at the start of the downswing.  When I do it right it feels so right, but right now I feel like I'm starting from scratch.  Oh well, I plod on...

[AwYea]

How is your alignment most of the time? Do you have problems getting aimed too far to the right or left, or do you ever have problems where your hips are aimed one way and your shoulders another? I ask because i don't believe in concentrated swing thoughts when it comes to the shoulders or hips. It sounds like your left wrist is collapsing at the top of the swing.

This could be a result of a few things...

-your grip is too strong with your right hand too much under the club, or  problem with your complete grip in general. How would you describe you grip, neutral, strong or weak? Also, how would you describe your hand position at address. Are your hands high or low?

-posture(tilt from the waist) and alignment. You say you are moving your head, this is usually a problem with a poor address position that causes you to sway rather than turn the hips. Standing too tall with not enough knee flex and not enough tilt at the hips can cause this.

Anyhow, i would be looking to fix this problem starting at the grip and address position. Starting the ball left and fading it back on line isn't really a fix unless you want to play a fade, which is totally fine.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by AwYea

How is your alignment most of the time? Do you have problems getting aimed too far to the right or left, or do you ever have problems where your hips are aimed one way and your shoulders another? I ask because i don't believe in concentrated swing thoughts when it comes to the shoulders or hips. It sounds like your left wrist is collapsing at the top of the swing.

This could be a result of a few things...

-your grip is too strong with your right hand too much under the club, or  problem with your complete grip in general. How would you describe you grip, neutral, strong or weak? Also, how would you describe your hand position at address. Are your hands high or low?

-posture(tilt from the waist) and alignment. You say you are moving your head, this is usually a problem with a poor address position that causes you to sway rather than turn the hips. Standing too tall with not enough knee flex and not enough tilt at the hips can cause this.

Anyhow, i would be looking to fix this problem starting at the grip and address position. Starting the ball left and fading it back on line isn't really a fix unless you want to play a fade, which is totally fine.

Grip is fairly neutral.  The right hand may even be a little weak.  For alignment I'll have to check video to see how my shoulders and hips are setup.  For my feet I lay a club down everytime.  When I took the lesson the guy said my backswing was pretty good accept for the lateral move back, which took my head out of position.  Main issue was on the transition I really flattened out my swing.  My backswing is fairly upright and I immediately go to a super flat position at the start of the downswing.  My head was WAY behind the ball at impact and probably 6 to 12 inches lower at impact than it was at address.  I'll definitely check the hip and shoulder alignment though.  Right now it feels like I'm pivoting around my left leg and almost feels like the weight is staying on the left foot, but I am still able to shift my weight forward on the downswing...if that makes sense.  When I do that though in conjunction with the hard laid off move it results in a shank.  If I do it without the layoff it has a nice ball flight that starts left of target and fades.

[AwYea]

I had your same problem as a younger player except my problem was a flat backswing. My club went back and around instead of straight back and up which lead to being laid off. I had every problem you described including the shanks. I also had a lot of hip movement. I've never seen anyone do what your doing though with an upright swing.

You definitely need to check the shoulder alignment and make sure they coincide. This is just as important if not more so than your hip alignment. If you notice any problems there you need to check your grip. A weak grip will promote your shoulders pointing left and a strong grip will point them right.

You probably know this, but just in case, hold a club across your shoulders once your in your address position then move the club down and hold it against your hips. Both should be pointing in the same direction parallel with your clubface/target line. I prefer this over clubs on the ground.

Good luck!

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by AwYea

I had your same problem as a younger player except my problem was a flat backswing. My club went back and around instead of straight back and up which lead to being laid off. I had every problem you described including the shanks. I also had a lot of hip movement. I've never seen anyone do what your doing though with an upright swing.

You definitely need to check the shoulder alignment and make sure they coincide. This is just as important if not more so than your hip alignment. If you notice any problems there you need to check your grip. A weak grip will promote your shoulders pointing left and a strong grip will point them right.

You probably know this, but just in case, hold a club across your shoulders once your in your address position then move the club down and hold it against your hips. Both should be pointing in the same direction parallel with your clubface/target line. I prefer this over clubs on the ground.

Good luck!

I will definitely check the alignments.  If you are curious I have a pic of my swing with the hard layoff and a massive head movement posted in the swing video forum.  I plan on posting an updated video once I get things figured out a bit.

[AwYea]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

I will definitely check the alignments.  If you are curious I have a pic of my swing with the hard layoff and a massive head movement posted in the swing video forum.  I plan on posting an updated video once I get things figured out a bit.

Could you give me a link to that? Thanks, i am curious.

Edit: i found it nevermind.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by AwYea

Could you give me a link to that? Thanks, i am curious.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/59538/my-swing-mr3wiggle

[AwYea]

Okay, you need to work on turning your left shoulder under your chin on the backswing. You're litterally standing up on your backswing while moving your head up and to the right so your left shoulder can turn. This leads to the major re-routing on the downswing and laying the club off.

You need to work on your posture at address and maintaining it thoughout your backswing . You seem to slump your shoulders a little bit at address instead of bending from the waste while keeping your shoulders tall. You'll need to experiment a little on your own to see what works best for you. Like sticking your rear out more, tilting from the waste, bending the kness. Whatever allows you to turn your left shoulder under your chin while keeping your head still on the backswing .

A good drill is to have someone stand out past the ball and put their hand on top of your head while you swing. This will let you feel if you're moving your head or not. You can do this with or without hitting balls. If you don't have someone use a shadow or a mirror and keep an eye on the mirror or shadow to see if your moving your head. You can do this inside or outside with or without a club. Another thing you can try is turn your head to the right before you start the backswing. Jack Nicklaus did this.

The biggest hurdle you're going to have is your swing is going to feel too short and a lot different and you're going to subconciously revert back to your old swing. You seem to hit the ball pretty well they way your doing it now, but it's almost impossible to be consistent laying the club off like you are.

I hope this helps. Maybe you can find some more info on turning the left shoulder on the backswing or ask your pro the next time on what you can do, but your major problem now is that you have to move your head up and to the right so your left shoulder can turn on the backswing.