Quick ball flight law question

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

What's wrong with the simple instruction of attempting to hit the ball with the clubface closed to path, thus creating the right to left curve? Once this is mastered we can then work on flight path.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate myself on my 400th post.

I don't know of any other way to hit a draw Just don't want the face closed to the target

[Patrick57]

I don't know of any other way to hit a draw ;-)   Just don't want the face closed to the target

So why complicate the directives?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

So why complicate the directives?

I assume you're talking about the video I made?  Do you just tell students make sure the face is right of the target but closed to the path?

Do you understand the more you roll the face the better chance you have of hitting a cut?

[Patrick57]

I assume you're talking about the video I made?  Do you just tell students make sure the face is right of the target but closed to the path? Do you understand the more you roll the face the better chance you have of hitting a cut?

Sorry Mike, I didn't watch the video. I always refer to clubface relevant to path, period. [quote name="mvmac" url="/t/59732/quick-ball-flight-law-question/36#post_734006"] Do you understand the more you roll the face the better chance you have of hitting a cut? [/quote] This one baffles me. Perhaps I need to watch your video. I could understand the relevance of this if the rolling was happening in the backswing.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

This one baffles me. Perhaps I need to watch your video. I could understand the relevance of this if the rolling was happening in the backswing.

The earlier we roll the clubface the more the handle of the club will back up, might even result in the golfer cupping his left wrist.  This rotates the path to the left or across the ball.  The handle also can't raise, club can't get out of the ground.  Low cuts and then we have equipment companies making oversized woods and irons with low centers of gravity to get the ball airborne.  Obviously at impact we want a flat left wrist with forward shaft lean, trying to release the club by rolling the toe over works against this.

I want to make clear that I'm not saying the golfer shouldn't have club face or forearm rotation on the downswing, but an excessive amount is not going to be good.

I've think I've shown this pic before, notice how the handle location changes when I try to roll the toe over in the left pic.  Compared to just having a flat left wrist which promotes an outward path to hit draws (assuming I'm not aimed left with my body at address).

[Dr. Slice]

I don't know if you can tell from this video what i may or may not be doing. Surprisingly, i hit a pretty solid push draw on this shot, just a little too high.

Also, is it just me or does my posture seem a bit off?

[pweenie]

I never knew there was such a thing as a "push draw"!!

I thought there were only 9 possible ball flights and all are determined by the swing path and the clubface angle at impact.

An in to out swing path with an open clubface at impact will result in a push .

For a draw you need an in to out swing path with a square club face at impact.

I sometimes think as golfers we call what is really a hook or a pull pull shot a draw - makes us feel good.

Likewise I have seen many players slice a ball and call it a fade.

I think most of the instructions given on this thread are far too confusing for the average golfer.

In one of the earliest replies someone said they can hit a fade with a closing club face at impact - you serious?

An out to in swing path (needed for a fade or slice) with a closed face will result in a pull shot.  I just cannot see how you can get a closed clubface on that swing path to slice or fade.

Just my $0.02

[iacas]

Originally Posted by pweenie

I never knew there was such a thing as a "push draw"!!

I thought there were only 9 possible ball flights and all are determined by the swing path and the clubface angle at impact.

An in to out swing path with an open clubface at impact will result in a push.

Open to what? If it's open to the path that's a push-slice or a push-fade. If it's open to the target or your body you could hit a push-draw, a straight push, or a push-fade, depending on where it's pointing and what the path truly was.

FWIW I prefer to use the terms "open" and "closed" to refer to the clubface relative to the path, and the terms "right" or "left" to talk about the face relative to the target (assuming, unless otherwise stated, a right-handed golfer).

Originally Posted by pweenie

For a draw you need an in to out swing path with a square club face at impact.

Square to what? The target? The path?

If it's "square" to the target, that's a "straight draw." The ball will start pretty much at the target and then curve left of it. It's not a good shot. If it's square to the path, then that's just a straight push.

A  good draw has the clubface pointing right (for a righty) at impact, and the path farther right of that, so the clubface is "right of target, closed to path."

In degrees, a push-draw might be +2° to the target (to the right), with a path that's +4° to the target (to the right) and thus +2° to the clubface.

Originally Posted by pweenie

I think most of the instructions given on this thread are far too confusing for the average golfer.

In one of the earliest replies someone said they can hit a fade with a closing club face at impact - you serious?

You'd be surprised. Closing the clubface by rolling the hands over sends the path left.

A clubface that points 2° to the left ("-2°" in Trackman terms, negative being to the left) with a path that's -6° will be a pull-slice. Clubface closed to the target, open to the path.

It's really fairly basic.

"The ball starts generally where the face is pointing and curves away from the path."

[pweenie]

Man I just lost a whole long answer/question for you iacas.

I am struggling to understand your description.

I never knew there were such things as a push-draw or a push-fade.

I thought there were only the following:

• Push, Draw and Hook - in to out swing path with open, square and closed club face respectively
• Slice, Fade and Pull - out to in swing path with open, square and closed club face respectively
• Push slice, Straight and Pull Hook - in to in swing path with open square and closed club face respectively.

I refer to the club face relative to the ball to target line when I say open square or closed.

What I call the "ball to target line" is an imaginary straight line that runs through the ball to the target (the flag usually, but not always)

Quote:

If it's "square" to the target, that's a "straight draw." The ball will start pretty much at the target and then curve left of it. It's not a good shot. If it's square to the path, then that's just a straight push.

A  good draw has the clubface pointing right (for a righty) at impact, and the path farther right of that, so the clubface is "right of target, closed to path."

I don't understand the concept of a "straight draw".  My simple mind says it is either a straight shot or not.  It cannot be both.  If the ball starts off going straight at the target and then bends left that is a hook and not a draw.  By definition a true draw start of slightly right of target (right handed golfer) and on reaching its apex drops to the left back on target.

I tried addressing a ball "right of target, closed to path" and think (make that know) I have it wrong as the only way I can do that is by almost turning my back on to the target.  In other words setting up for a pull.

Maybe we have a different definition of ball to target line.  I'd like to hear yours.

And I still strongly disagree with what you call a pull slice - its a physical impossibilty the way you describe it.  Maybe a slow mo video would switch my light on.

As for the degrees.  I don't consider myself to be stupid but I really cannot imagine getting something close to 2 or 4 degrees left or right of the target using a club-head and a golfswing which is why I said that some instructions are just too complicated.

[pweenie]

iacas

I just had a look at your ball flight chart and note that the we refer to certain shots by different names.  What your chart calls a push draw is in my terms a draw.

And no where on your Ball flight laws does it show the "pull slice" that you refer to above.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by pweenie

I never knew there were such things as a push-draw or a push-fade.

Push, Draw and Hook - in to out swing path with open, square and closed club face respectively

Slice, Fade and Pull - out to in swing path with open, square and closed club face respectively

Push slice, Straight and Pull Hook - in to in swing path with open square and closed club face respectively.

The problem with considering something "in to in" is that every golf swing is "in to in." It just matters at what point you strike the golf ball along that "in to in" path that every golfer uses that determines whether the path at the moment of maximum deformation is left of, right of, or square to the clubface angle.

I'll save us some time, read this: http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

Originally Posted by pweenie

What I call the "ball to target line" is an imaginary straight line that runs through the ball to the target (the flag usually, but not always)

Same here. That's the target line.

Originally Posted by pweenie

I don't understand the concept of a "straight draw".  My simple mind says it is either a straight shot or not. It cannot be both. If the ball starts off going straight at the target and then bends left that is a hook and not a draw.

Meh. In my terminology a pull-draw is perfectly playable shot too, because the golfer can simply align himself far enough right that the ball still starts right of the target. The "pull" refers to his body's alignment.

So if I aim 10° right, pull the ball 5°, and it curves 5° in the air, that's a playable pull-draw.

There are lots of ways to get it done. Every one of the nine shots in the graphic below is a playable shot if you simply rotate the golfer enough to play a pull-draw or a push-fade or what-have-you.

In the example of a straight draw, the ball starts out square to the golfer's alignment and draws from there.

The word "hook" and "draw" (and fade/slice) are interchangeable. They both just mean a spin axis tilted a certain way.

Originally Posted by pweenie

I tried addressing a ball "right of target, closed to path" and think (make that know) I have it wrong as the only way I can do that is by almost turning my back on to the target.  In other words setting up for a pull.

I don't understand how that would be setting up for a pull.

I can quite easily hit a good push draw by setting up (and returning at impact of course) the clubface at 2° right of the target and sending the club only 4° out to the right of the target (thus 2° right of the clubface).

Ball pushes to just over 2° (assuming square body alignments), and draws back to the target.

Originally Posted by pweenie

And I still strongly disagree with what you call a pull slice - its a physical impossibilty the way you describe it.  Maybe a slow mo video would switch my light on.

I guarantee you it's not physically impossible! Visit any practice range in the country most days and you'll see plenty of pull-slices! Balls start left of the golfer's alignment (and the target), and slice wildly to the right.

Originally Posted by pweenie

As for the degrees.  I don't consider myself to be stupid but I really cannot imagine getting something close to 2 or 4 degrees left or right of the target using a club-head and a golfswing which is why I said that some instructions are just too complicated.

I don't really understand that. That's how we play good golf - we're not talking about the face or path being 10° or more different from each other. That would create some REALLY BIG curves.

Originally Posted by pweenie

iacas

I just had a look at your ball flight chart and note that the we refer to certain shots by different names.  What your chart calls a push draw is in my terms a draw.

And no where on your Ball flight laws does it show the "pull slice" that you refer to above.

A pull-slice or pull-fade is shot C.

I use the second word to describe the curve (if there is any), and the first word describes the start direction relative to the golfer's body alignments.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by iacas

You'd be surprised. Closing the clubface by rolling the hands over sends the path left.

Isn't that like saying eating breakfast speeds up your metabolism (which it doesn't, but for illustration purposes)..... so if I eat a 500 calories bagel and my metabolism speeds up 100 calories a day, I'm burning 100 calories more so then I lose more weight - not.

Similarly, if rotation of the clubface were to cost us 2 degrees in the path, but at a benefit of 5 degrees (or more) of clubface closing, wouldn't we be in net gain still?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Isn't that like saying eating breakfast speeds up your metabolism (which it doesn't, but for illustration purposes)..... so if I eat a 500 calories bagel and my metabolism speeds up 100 calories a day, I'm burning 100 calories more so then I lose more weight - not.

Similarly, if rotation of the clubface were to cost us 2 degrees in the path, but at a benefit of 5 degrees (or more) of clubface closing, wouldn't we be in net gain still?

Not necessarily, no. And if you're picturing or the shot calls for a push-draw, hitting a pull-fade isn't necessarily going to "net gain" either.

We've seen a good number of good players who are in at A6 and still hitting pulls and fades with contact that's not quite as good. Why? Because they kick 3 really late, really hard.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by iacas

Not necessarily, no. And if you're picturing or the shot calls for a push-draw, hitting a pull-fade isn't necessarily going to "net gain" either.

We've seen a good number of good players who are in at A6 and still hitting pulls and fades with contact that's not quite as good. Why? Because they kick 3 really late, really hard.

Sorry, I have no idea what A6 and kicking 3 mean. - but I get your drift. I think it is largely how the rotation is taught, obviously talking about flipping the hands over or crossing the forearms can lead to some pretty funky path changes, but I never talk about it like that.

But a slicer who is hitting hit with trackman stats of -8 path +4 clubface would be greatly benefited from the net gain of rotation, even if his stats went to -10 path - 3 face. Sure - not optimum, but in certain situations it may be worth doing. It will certainly get the ball going more onto his target than the old stats.

and you can always just set up a little right of the target and use this rotation of the clubhead.

rotation of the clubhead is only going to contribute to a slice if it changes the path more than the face. this isn't true in what I have seen. Marginal path changes are counteracted by much bigger face changes.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

But a slicer who is hitting hit with trackman stats of -8 path +4 clubface would be greatly benefited from the net gain of rotation

I asked Chuck Evans how many slicers he ever saw with a face pointing right (for righties) of the target in his 40+ years of teaching. He said he didn't even need one hand to count them. The person you described doesn't really exist, unless they're perhaps brand new to the game.

Originally Posted by Adam Young

rotation of the clubhead is only going to contribute to a slice if it changes the path more than the face. this isn't true in what I have seen. Marginal path changes are counteracted by much bigger face changes.

Not among better players, in my experience. They're pretty good at keeping the face from getting to some weird state.

And if you don't know what I'm talking about, click the "golf terminology" link in my signature.

[Adam Young]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

I asked Chuck Evans how many slicers he ever saw with a face pointing right (for righties) of the target in his 40+ years of teaching. He said he didn't even need one hand to count them. The person you described doesn't really exist, unless they're perhaps brand new to the game.

You have never been to Austria then.

Quote:

Not among better players, in my experience. They're pretty good at keeping the face from getting to some weird state.

we are not talking about a face with a weird state, we are talking about getting a face in a position that controls the ball to the point that it flies towards the target.

I would consider myself and lots of my colleagues better players. Some of them are tour players at the highest level. Almost every one of them feels some sort of extra clubface rotation to hit a shot that draws, usually accompanied by a definite swing direction change (and usually a ball position change to complement to swing direction change. I have never ever in my life heard a good quality player say they use rotation of the hands/clubhead to hit a fade.

So if someone has a good grip, a good (slightly inside) path through impact but is straight blocking it... would you not suggest clubhead rotation then?

[Zeph]

There are of course players out there hitting push slices, I've been there myself, but not on a regular basis I would say. An out-in swing path only gets worse with an open clubface. You wouldn't be able to play half decent golf with that kind of swing. Unless the difference in angles are small and the player aligns more left. Still, the natural tendency for someone with an out to in path is to close the clubface, not open it. Through time, most will figure this out and use it as a band aid. They probably don't know what they are doing, but after hitting a lot of balls, they teach themselves what to do to counter the out-in path. [quote name="Adam Young" url="/t/59732/quick-ball-flight-law-question/36#post_734921"]So if someone has a good grip, a good (slightly inside) path through impact but is straight blocking it... would you not suggest clubhead rotation then?[/quote] Perhaps at address, but not at impact.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Perhaps at address, but not at impact.

maybe I should have added one more stipulation. Your player has a good grip, clubface is square to target at address and has a slightly in to out swing and is blocking it right.

Would you shut the face to the left of the target or use the clubhead rotation?