Ball Moves On Putting Surface - Do You Call It?

[LovinItAll]

Do others see this often? Player addresses putt, brushes ball, ball moves (maybe only a dimple), player keeps on keepin' on w/out assessing himself a penalty. I think I see this breach more than any other that isn't outright, purposeful cheating. If I do it, I'll call it on myself, but my playing partners will say, "Let it go." I do, but only because the matches are for money, and if they're willing to let me have it, I take it. The consequence is that if I don't and then call it on them, an argument of epic proportion will ensue. These are the same guys that will call a penalty on themselves if their ball moves anywhere else, if they ground a club in a hazard, etc. I'm not saying I see it every round, but maybe a couple of times per month. The second year I played golf, I called this on myself in the Publinks qualifier and missed the cut by a shot. There was a radio personality in our group who actually dogged me on the air and said something like, "What was that guy thinking? I'd have never called that on myself. It barely moved!" No worries if you're reading this, Ron. I'd have called it on you. What do you do when this happens in a casual round where you'd never breach any other rule? Remember, I'm talking a dimple or two, not a "Damn, I can't believe I just bumped the ball and it rolled six inches.", and not an oscillation. Note: I'm too lazy to look it up, but I think there may have been a rule change regarding something like this recently. The event I mentioned was in 2001.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Note: I'm too lazy to look it up, but I think there may have been a rule change regarding something like this recently. The event I mentioned was in 2001.

The rule change has to do with wind moving your ball once you have addressed it and a change to the definition of addressing your ball.  If the player is deemed to have caused the ball to move, 2001 or now, it's still a penalty.

[LovinItAll]

The rule change has to do with wind moving your ball once you have addressed it and a change to the definition of addressing your ball.  If the player is deemed to have caused the ball to move, 2001 or now, it's still a penalty.

Thanks. I thought it was something like that.

[Big C]

I have never done this on the putting green, but for some reason it happens to me quite a bit when I'm in the fairway. In other words, I'll be addressing my ball and during my pre-swing "waggle," my clubface will tap the ball ever so lightly. Never enough to make it move (and rarely enough to see from the naked eye), but enough that I can feel it happening. I've tried to remedy this before, but unless I start my takeaway from directly next to the ball, I never seem to hit it solidly.

I must confess I've never called this penalty on myself in the handful of times that it has happened to me.

[joekelly]

Umm, OP.  What do you mean 'brushes ball'?  Touching the ball, sweeping your hand over the top to chase away the bug, adjust the putter so it touches the ball, etc.  I think if you are not directly involved with setting or removing a ball marker and you get too damn close to the ball with your hand or club, you are in 'penalty country', if that ball moves. If it moves and the air is calm the penalty potential is available to you if you care to call yourself.

[Jeffrey71]

I had this happen once to me. When I addressed the ball my putter touched it and it "oscilated" but didn't change position. I counted a penalty stroke and when I got home consulted the rules website. To my understanding of what I read, a penalty stroke is incurred if the position of the ball changes then it's a 1 stroke penalty, but if it "oscilates", no penalty.

[LovinItAll]

Umm, OP.  What do you mean 'brushes ball'?  Touching the ball, sweeping your hand over the top to chase away the bug, adjust the putter so it touches the ball, etc.  I think if you are not directly involved with setting or removing a ball marker and you get too damn close to the ball with your hand or club, you are in 'penalty country', if that ball moves. If it moves and the air is calm the penalty potential is available to you if you care to call yourself.

I mean touching it with the club when grounding the putter prior to taking the stroke. It's definitely a penalty. I mention that I see it in the green periodically, but it may happen everywhere to the same extent, but since I'm on the green with the players, that's where I happen to see it. I never fully ground any club other than putter, and I get closer to the ball with putter than any other club. Not sure about other folks.

[inthehole]

I realize golf is a sport with roots firmly planted in its rules, but comon ... if you move the ball a dimple - you have not effectively changed the position of the ball.     I wouldn't call that penalty.    I have bumped the ball with the putter during my pre-shot stroke and moved it an inch or two, sure thats a different story & a penalty would seem far more appropriate.    Rules are rules, I get it, although I may not agree with it ...

[zeg]

Originally Posted by inthehole

I realize golf is a sport with roots firmly planted in its rules, but comon ... if you move the ball a dimple - you have not effectively changed the position of the ball.     I wouldn't call that penalty.    I have bumped the ball with the putter during my pre-shot stroke and moved it an inch or two, sure thats a different story & a penalty would seem far more appropriate.    Rules are rules, I get it, although I may not agree with it ...

It can be frustrating, but it's hard to draw a line in the sand (or perhaps in the grass?) that divides "no benefit" from "benefit." You say an inch or two, but why? Have you ever actually been in a situation where an inch or two made a significant difference, so why bother with a penalty there unless that inch took you around a big spike mark. So maybe the threshold should be a foot, because a 9 foot putt is measurably easier than a 10 foot putt. But in that case, maybe you should be allowed a bigger threshold perpendicular to the hole since it doesn't make the putt shorter, so unless there's a lot of break, who's really counting.....

The rule is quite simple, "Play it as it lies." If you deviate from that, even by a dimple, that's a penalty. Any other rule would either require another equally arbitrary threshold or would lead to some hopeless situation involving referees.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

I mean touching it with the club when grounding the putter prior to taking the stroke. It's definitely a penalty.

Just so everyone is clear, accidentally touching the ball with your club is not a penalty.  Even if it "oscillates" no penalty.  Only if it moves, is a penalty incurred.  The ball moving is defined by leaving it's present position and coming to a rest in any other place.

[LovinItAll]

Just so everyone is clear, accidentally touching the ball with your club is not a penalty.  Even if it "oscillates" no penalty.  Only if it moves, is a penalty incurred.  The ball moving is defined by leaving it's present position and coming to a rest in any other place.

Yes, I meant touching the ball and it coming to rest in a different position. [quote name="inthehole" url="/t/59910/ball-moves-on-putting-surface-do-you-call-it#post_735936"]I realize golf is a sport with roots firmly planted in its rules, but comon ... if you move the ball a dimple - you have not effectively changed the position of the ball.     I wouldn't call that penalty.    I have bumped the ball with the putter during my pre-shot stroke and moved it an inch or two, sure thats a different story & a penalty would seem far more appropriate.    Rules are rules, I get it, although I may not agree with it ... [/quote] I guess that's why there's little choice but to abide by the rules, as 'not improving one's position' could happen frequently after a rules infraction. Shoot,, there are still some folks that place their putter in front of the ball as a part of their pre-shot. If they bump the ball then, it could move a foot further away from the hole (definitely not an improvement), but making exceptions creates a slippery slope. IMO, anyway.

[lonewolf]

Called it on myself last weekend.  Addressed a putt on 18. Ball moved - a few dimples.  It was noticeable as the label was oriented different.  Made an 8-footer for 6 instead of 5.  Noone else saw it, but me.  Sucks, but it's the rule and I never want to have a rules infraction that I committed in the back of my mind.

[joekelly]

Usually we think of 'ball moving' if ball moves on the horizontal putting surface. I am considering my putting line with putter in hand and the damn thing drops, head first, onto the top of the ball. Now the ball moved downward into the surface of the turf and is sitting in a tiny crater. Certainly the new position is not closer to the hole but to putt the ball from out of the crater won't be so easy. Take a penalty. Then what?  Replace the ball? To what place?  Fix the 'pitch mark'?

[zeg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by joekelly

Usually we think of 'ball moving' if ball moves on the horizontal putting surface. I am considering my putting line with putter in hand and the damn thing drops, head first, onto the top of the ball. Now the ball moved downward into the surface of the turf and is sitting in a tiny crater. Certainly the new position is not closer to the hole but to putt the ball from out of the crater won't be so easy. Take a penalty. Then what?  Replace the ball? To what place?  Fix the 'pitch mark'?

Yes, your ball has moved. It doesn't mater what axis it moves along. You incur a one-stroke penalty and must replace the ball. Where do you place it? Rule 20.3b tells us.

Quote:

b . Lie of Ball to be Placed or Replaced Altered

If the original lie of a ball to be placed or replaced has been altered:

(i) except in a hazard , the ball must be placed in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie that is not more than one club-length from the original lie, not nearer the hole and not in a hazard ;

As the crater is not a mark from the impact of a ball, you may not repair it (you probably could if it's in a place where it won't affect subsequent play, but it'd probably be wise to wait until you've putted out).

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by joekelly

Usually we think of 'ball moving' if ball moves on the horizontal putting surface. I am considering my putting line with putter in hand and the damn thing drops, head first, onto the top of the ball. Now the ball moved downward into the surface of the turf and is sitting in a tiny crater. Certainly the new position is not closer to the hole but to putt the ball from out of the crater won't be so easy. Take a penalty. Then what?  Replace the ball? To what place?  Fix the 'pitch mark'?

LOL.....Joe, you had to make this up!

Zeg gave you a great answer, BTW.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by zeg

Yes, your ball has moved. It doesn't mater what axis it moves along. You incur a one-stroke penalty and must replace the ball. Where do you place it? Rule 20.3b tells us.

Some places may have gas "bubbles" under the turf, and when you step on those the earth rises and the ball with it. But the ball has not moved as it has not changed place regarding the surrounding. Same thing when the ball is in the tree and you touch the branch. If the ball stays in same branch it has not moved.

Of course in "drop the putter on top of the ball" case the ball has moved relative to its surrounding.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by luu5

Some places may have gas "bubbles" under the turf, and when you step on those the earth rises and the ball with it. But the ball has not moved as it has not changed place regarding the surrounding. Same thing when the ball is in the tree and you touch the branch. If the ball stays in same branch it has not moved.

Of course in "drop the putter on top of the ball" case the ball has moved relative to its surrounding.

Don't tell me we're going to have to add general relativistic corrections to the RoG!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by zeg

Don't tell me we're going to have to add general relativistic corrections to the RoG!

We are. Right after we define an allowable amount of molecular movement, because after all, the ball is always moving (pretty sure nobody plays much golf at 0K).