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Posted
Originally Posted by logman

And on the subject of predictability, well, I think I'm one of the few on here that is trying an "alternative" swing method(for good or bad) and I think maybe someone might be interested in hearing the pro's and cons of what I'm seeing........Is that of no interest to you?

See if it was just relating personal experiences of trying different swing methods then I don't think anyone would jump on Patrick or Ocean. But they don't come in and say hey guys this is what I've been trying lately, it seems to be working for me. Here are some numbers/videos/analysis before and after so you can all see what I'm talking about.

They come in, don't read anything on the site before posting and basically start preaching, telling everyone how they should approach golf, how they should swing the club, telling everyone else that they're wrong and then not engaging in any actual debate or discussion and that is not a constructive or useful way to do things.

  • Upvote 2

Posted
Originally Posted by Mordan

See if it was just relating personal experiences of trying different swing methods then I don't think anyone would jump on Patrick or Ocean. But they don't come in and say hey guys this is what I've been trying lately, it seems to be working for me. Here are some numbers/videos/analysis before and after so you can all see what I'm talking about.

They come in, don't read anything on the site before posting and basically start preaching, telling everyone how they should approach golf, how they should swing the club, telling everyone else that they're wrong and then not engaging in any actual debate or discussion and that is not a constructive or useful way to do things.

People have other views to you and express them differently, that doesn't effect you or challenge your spot here does it?

Taking the above advice may lead to destruction of your golf game. Laughing at it may reduce stress.


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Posted
Originally Posted by logman

Geez, we're still all trying to flog this 5 simple dvd stuff. It's like every frikken subject gets highjacked into a infomercial.

Patrick57 brought it up. Nobody else had said a thing about it.

"But wait, there's more!!!" (<---- infomercial joke)

Originally Posted by logman

I'm just saying, is it a forum or is it a vehicle for the owners to sell stuff? So i can criticise every other thing in golf apart from the products of the owners. That's a bit dull. And a bit precious.


I love how deluded people can get.

You started this thread: http://thesandtrap.com/t/60553/commonalities-of-pros-maybe-not/ . You criticized things plenty there. It hasn't been deleted, and won't be. You're free to criticize what you like (not other people, but what they say is fine). You should be aware by now that "free to criticize" doesn't mean "everyone will agree with you."

And fwiw, I think we do very little "selling" of stuff, particularly given the amount of information we share freely.


Originally Posted by logman

And on the subject of predictability, well, I think I'm one of the few on here that is trying an "alternative" swing method(for good or bad) and I think maybe someone might be interested in hearing the pro's and cons of what I'm seeing........Is that of no interest to you?


You've gone about telling people about this "alternative" swing in a very poor fashion. Where's your swing video? Your threads talking about LPG are more about attacking other things rather than sharing what makes your "alternative" swing method so great.

Originally Posted by Mordan

See if it was just relating personal experiences of trying different swing methods then I don't think anyone would jump on Patrick or Ocean. But they don't come in and say hey guys this is what I've been trying lately, it seems to be working for me. Here are some numbers/videos/analysis before and after so you can all see what I'm talking about.

They come in, don't read anything on the site before posting and basically start preaching, telling everyone how they should approach golf, how they should swing the club, telling everyone else that they're wrong and then not engaging in any actual debate or discussion and that is not a constructive or useful way to do things.

Yep. I see it similarly.


I'm comfortable with my understanding of the golf swing. I'm happy to debate it with anyone. But debates are best when they have facts, not "you guys suck, my way is great because I say so, you're all being duped!" That doesn't serve anyone. A BIG part of what's made us (Golf Evolution) successful and knowledgeable is that we debate things internally all the time. We question ourselves. We don't say "we have this right, we're so great." We say "what flaws do we still have in our understanding? How can we improve what we know?" We joke about "busting things up" all the time, but the truth of the matter is we try to bust our own things up all the time.

Some people seem to have a lot of hate in them. That's unfortunate.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Posted

I saw a guy at the range yesterday using the LPG swing! Looked exactly like the video! I caught him out of the corner of my eye as I was about to leave and had to stop and watch for a few since this LPG has been a topic lately. This guy was indeed hitting his driver very straight shot after shot, but as I expected from watching the LPG video, his drives were consistently landing all the way out PAST the 100 yd marker!

  • Upvote 1

Posted
Originally Posted by reedf

I saw a guy at the range yesterday using the LPG swing! Looked exactly like the video! I caught him out of the corner of my eye as I was about to leave and had to stop and watch for a few since this LPG has been a topic lately. This guy was indeed hitting his driver very straight shot after shot, but as I expected from watching the LPG video, his drives were consistently landing all the way out PAST the 100 yd marker!

the way your hitting your driver you should have asked for a lesson

Taking the above advice may lead to destruction of your golf game. Laughing at it may reduce stress.


Note: This thread is 4884 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
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