False sense of really getting to the 70's?

[Large chris]

I agree 100% with working out, but maybe not for the same reasons.. We're not talking about, "how can I hit the ball farther" or "how can I make more putts", but "how can I shoot in the 70s".  People who score well for 18 holes are fit enough to approach the 18th hole with the same focus as the 2nd hole. It takes less energy to hit fewer shots, so playing 9-holes well is much easier physically than playing 9-holes poorly. To play well for 18 though, you need to make good swings for about 4 hours. Much easier with a decent fitness level.

When I say significant I mean that that extra 5 mph in his case sounds like it will cut down on the 180 yard approaches that seem to be damaging his score so much. We have at our course 3 par fours that can be tough to reach for almost anyone, but all the good players at my club can easily reach the others. Everyone else is effectively playing close to par 5s most of the time, tough to break 80 in that case.

[burner]

Originally Posted by Maverick

I wouldn't say I'm swining out..I've been using a 12 degree driver which has been keeping me straight and in play.  I'm not sure (doubt) that a lower lofted driver (say 10.5) will give me more distance with my swing speed either.  It just more "fun" when you see the ball go straight and in play.  I don't know if it's even worth opting for a lower lofted driver if there is more chance of the drives going awry at the cost of getting a "longer" drive..once in awhile.

12* driver will get you more distance, generally, than a 10.5* as the carry (not to mention accuracy) will be greater. Not all courses have tour prepared driver landing areas where 60+ yards of roll are virtually guaranteed.

Your final sentence is right on the money.

[Spudmonkey]

Originally Posted by Stevep21

Work on that driver/fairway woods and turn those 180 yard approaches into less :)

This!!  Need decent short game, decent putting, decent mid/short iron game, but most of all T balls/ second shots leaving you 160yds or less in, it takes the strain off your long iron (hence less pressure scrambling for pars).

[Maverick]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Your stated average distance is perhaps an overestimate as it's so close to your max distance.

Can you contrast further..but, on average (or max distance) it's been about 220-230..I have hit them 240 when I'm feeling confident and the fw is wide open.

[Maverick]

Originally Posted by Spudmonkey

This!!  Need decent short game, decent putting, decent mid/short iron game, but most of all T balls/ second shots leaving you 160yds or less in, it takes the strain off your long iron (hence less pressure scrambling for pars).

Yes, I agree..a longer drive would do wonders to assist in cutting down a 170-180 yard approach.

[mdl]

Do you track your actual up and down percentage?  You say most of your pars are up and downs, so you rarely hit GIR?  Obviously just a demonstration, but figure you lay up or miss the green slightly on every hole but have a "reasonable" chance for up and down.  If you're playing to 85, that means only 5 holes are you getting up and down and 13 holes you're not (assuming no three putts), which gives you a 28% overall up and down percentage.  Even if you had a 180+ approach on 4-6 holes and laid up so your "up" shot wasn't really a green side up and down type shot, you're still probably not successfully getting up and down on green side pitches/chips more than 40+% of the time.  That makes sense as even the pros aren't successful getting up and down around the green a ton more often than that.

What I'm saying is, even with an unrealistic 50% up and down percentage on green side misses, if you're never hitting GIR even if you never lay up and have 18 green side chips, if you make 50% you're shooting 81.  Obviously someone who plays regularly and is capable of shooting 80s rarely has a round with zero GIR, so yes you could theoretically break 80 on days when you're on fire, but no, you're never going to be a consistent 70s player relying on up and downs for the vast majority of your pars.

So you need to work on your full swing game (so if you have an approach shot <180 yards you're not almost always missing the green still), and if you're physically capable of even reasonable amateur swing speed you should take some lessons to figure out how to swing faster but remain in reasonable control.  It sounds like you play now exclusively focusing on avoiding huge misses, accepting very short distance.  Accepting shorter distance in favor of much more control is definitely something a lot of people should do (myself probably more even than others!), but if that means you have to accept playing every par 4 over 360 or 380 as a par 5, then you need to either only play the front tees at short courses, or learn to hit the ball a bit farther (assuming you want to play in the 70s, obviously lots of older guys just accept short distance and play against the scores they are capable of which they accept from the start are higher than what's marked as par on the card).

[Maverick]

Originally Posted by mdl

Do you track your actual up and down percentage?  You say most of your pars are up and downs, so you rarely hit GIR?  Obviously just a demonstration, but figure you lay up or miss the green slightly on every hole but have a "reasonable" chance for up and down.  If you're playing to 85, that means only 5 holes are you getting up and down and 13 holes you're not (assuming no three putts), which gives you a 28% overall up and down percentage.  Even if you had a 180+ approach on 4-6 holes and laid up so your "up" shot wasn't really a green side up and down type shot, you're still probably not successfully getting up and down on green side pitches/chips more than 40+% of the time.  That makes sense as even the pros aren't successful getting up and down around the green a ton more often than that.

What I'm saying is, even with an unrealistic 50% up and down percentage on green side misses, if you're never hitting GIR even if you never lay up and have 18 green side chips, if you make 50% you're shooting 81.  Obviously someone who plays regularly and is capable of shooting 80s rarely has a round with zero GIR, so yes you could theoretically break 80 on days when you're on fire, but no, you're never going to be a consistent 70s player relying on up and downs for the vast majority of your pars.

So you need to work on your full swing game (so if you have an approach shot <180 yards you're not almost always missing the green still), and if you're physically capable of even reasonable amateur swing speed you should take some lessons to figure out how to swing faster but remain in reasonable control.  It sounds like you play now exclusively focusing on avoiding huge misses, accepting very short distance.  Accepting shorter distance in favor of much more control is definitely something a lot of people should do (myself probably more even than others!), but if that means you have to accept playing every par 4 over 360 or 380 as a par 5, then you need to either only play the front tees at short courses, or learn to hit the ball a bit farther (assuming you want to play in the 70s, obviously lots of older guys just accept short distance and play against the scores they are capable of which they accept from the start are higher than what's marked as par on the card).

Wow, great analysis.  Yes, here are my current stats (via Scorecard 2)

FW - 47.25%

GIR - 19.70 %

PUTTS - 34

[Precis1on]

I was in the same boat as you last year. Mediocre long game accuracy (had the distance), and was relying on my short game to get it up and down on almost every hole. You just can't score in the 70s doing that unless you have a lights out day getting up and down and are lucky to sink putts on the GIRs you do hit.

In short, I worked (and am still working) on my ballstriking and accuracy. You need GIRs . I bold that, because that's essentially how you will shoot in the 70s. Becoming a better ballstriker has actually increased my distance and given me confidence in my longer irons, which are now one of my strongest clubs in the bag. Once I started hitting GIRs, I set myself up for birdies opportunities and making birdies will take tremendous pressure off of you to get into the 70s.

So work on your ballstriking, and distance and accuracy should come with. I am about 20 yards longer with my woods/hybrids, 15 yards longer with my long irons, and 10 yards longer with my short irons... so there was no sacrifice in distance when I worked on accuracy, but I also wasn't overswinging or swinging too hard to begin with.

Also check out Erik's post: http://thesandtrap.com/t/58816/65-25-10-practice-ratios-where-to-devote-your-practice-time

[Jimdangles]

Originally Posted by Maverick

Wow, great analysis.  Yes, here are my current stats (via Scorecard 2)

FW - 47.25%

GIR - 19.70 %

PUTTS - 34

ya just look at your stats. If you are still 2 putting every hole and only hit 4 greens then its just about impossible. For every missed green you have to make up for that with 1 putting to be scratch.

[Chief Broom]

What yardage course/tees do you usually play?

I checked my stats/scores going back a few years and the least greens I hit while still breaking 80 (I shot a 79) were 5 (28% GIR).  I noted on that score where my chipping was exceptionally good that day and I successfully scrambled for par 7 out of 13 times.  I also had 30 putts with 2 3 putts.

I don't discount those urging you to work on your long game, and specifically your driving distance, but if your distance is truly maxed out you might want to consider the tees your playing or the length of course.

[rustyredcab]

Best round I've seen in my group was an old buddy I had not seen in years and with whom I'd never played golf.  He was a very good golfer and the class of our three-some. He was outdriven by the tow of us on every hole but maybe one. He drove the ball about 220-230. Nothing special. Left himself long pro approaches. He managed to hit them nice and straight and found nearly every green. Missed two greens all day. Got up and down on one of them. Two putted every green but one where he made a long putt for birdie (and the up and down one). Had maybe one second putt all day that was longer than a near tap in. No stress. Ended the round with one birdie, one boogie, the rest pars. Never hit a spectacular shot all day. Never really missed a shot either. Ho hum par 72. It was cold and windy and he made it look easy. Almost dull. He's a two handicap.

If you are not going to be long enough off the tee to have short irons into greens, be like my buddy and get good from 170-190 out. Note that my buddy didn't just shoot in the 70's. He shot 72. You can miss a few putts and still shoot 79. :)

If you add up your best scores ever for each hole on your home course, what is you score? Bet it is well under 80.

[Maverick]

Originally Posted by Jimdangles

ya just look at your stats. If you are still 2 putting every hole and only hit 4 greens then its just about impossible. For every missed green you have to make up for that with 1 putting to be scratch.

..you're right..for every missed green I need a 1-putt..but I'm hoping my short game will get me close to achieve this..and I'm not asking to be PAR..just floating in the 70's..but I have gotten a few 1-putts in a round.  It's interesting to read all the viewpoints as far as some of you have said it's near impossible, to play the white tees, learn to hit it farther, to some that have commented, like rustyredcab, to work on the mid-long game.

I know it's a heavy/long haul..still tinkering with what I need to do..perhaps try out my 10.5 degree driver and see if that might give me 10-20 yards..which would help out..but it's so NICE to be straight.

[rustyredcab]

Quote:

GIR - 19.70 %

PUTTS - 34

Look. We all miss greens. We all do not get up and down from around the green as well as we'd like.

If your wish is to drop a few strokes off your score as quickly as possible, I'd work on your chipping first, second, and third. It is free. It is available wherever there is a practice green. It does not take super athletic abilities that you do not have (like learning to hit a driver 300 yards). There are lots of drills and advise about chipping, pitching, bunkers shots... Start with chipping and get good at it. You may find that you quickly get to the point where you give yourself a putt you can potentially make nearly ever time and that you never mess up too badly. Track your up-and-down percentage and get it to 25%. Then 30%. Then 40%. Once you are at 50%, your 84 just became a 79 even if you still only hit 3 or 4 greens in regulation. Hit a few more GIR's and your 84 becomes a 77.

Best way to get to 79 may be to learn a dead straight reliable 180 shot so you can drive the ball in the fairway and still get on the green. Fastest way to 79 is learn to be a chipping wizard.

[Chief Broom]

Originally Posted by Maverick

I know it's a heavy/long haul..still tinkering with what I need to do..perhaps try out my 10.5 degree driver and see if that might give me 10-20 yards..which would help out..but it's so NICE to be straight.

The reason I asked the typical yardages you play from is because that has a huge impact on breaking 80.  I'd say if you stick to tees less than 6300 yds and hit your driver 220-230, but always straight, you'll have no trouble occasionally shooting in the 70's.  Now if on the other hand you play tees pushing beyond mid 6000 yds to upper 6000's (and beyond) you're going to have a lot of trouble, and in fact have to play lights out in order to break 80.

In actuality my average driver distance is certainly in the mid 230 yd range and I always stand a chance (albeit a small one) of breaking 80 on any given day (even on tees pushing beyond mid 6000 yds).  Do I hit driver a lot farther than 230, sure, but an average also has to take into account all those lousy drives too and that's what brings my average way down.  I'd say if you can hit your driver consistently 220 yds but find the fairway a majority of the time, and you're playing a set of tees a little over 6000 yds your typical approach shots on par 4s should by mid iron or shorter.  And a mid iron or better in your hands on typical par 4s is pretty much all anyone can ask for when trying to break 80.

[Maverick]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Look. We all miss greens. We all do not get up and down from around the green as well as we'd like.

If your wish is to drop a few strokes off your score as quickly as possible, I'd work on your chipping first, second, and third. It is free. It is available wherever there is a practice green. It does not take super athletic abilities that you do not have (like learning to hit a driver 300 yards). There are lots of drills and advise about chipping, pitching, bunkers shots... Start with chipping and get good at it. You may find that you quickly get to the point where you give yourself a putt you can potentially make nearly ever time and that you never mess up too badly. Track your up-and-down percentage and get it to 25%. Then 30%. Then 40%. Once you are at 50%, your 84 just became a 79 even if you still only hit 3 or 4 greens in regulation. Hit a few more GIR's and your 84 becomes a 77.

Best way to get to 79 may be to learn a dead straight reliable 180 shot so you can drive the ball in the fairway and still get on the green. Fastest way to 79 is learn to be a chipping wizard.

I would say my chipping over the last year has really improved.  I'm confident that no matter where green-side, I'll be in the hole in two.  It's getting it even closer for that 1-putt.  I know this is not the ideal way to play, but for now it seems to be keeping me in the mid 80's.  I admit though, for the approaches that are 160 or less..it is without exception/excuse, that I HAVE to be on the green.

[LovinItAll]

The reason I asked the typical yardages you play from is because that has a huge impact on breaking 80.  I'd say if you stick to tees less than 6300 yds and hit your driver 220-230, but always straight, you'll have no trouble occasionally shooting in the 70's.  Now if on the other hand you play tees pushing beyond mid 6000 yds to upper 6000's (and beyond) you're going to have a lot of trouble, and in fact have to play lights out in order to break 80. In actuality my average driver distance is certainly in the mid 230 yd range and I always stand a chance (albeit a small one) of breaking 80 on any given day (even on tees pushing beyond mid 6000 yds).  Do I hit driver a lot farther than 230, sure, but an average also has to take into account all those lousy drives too and that's what brings my average way down.  I'd say if you can hit your driver consistently 220 yds but find the fairway a majority of the time, and you're playing a set of tees a little over 6000 yds your typical approach shots on par 4s should by mid iron or shorter.  And a mid iron or better in your hands on typical par 4s is pretty much all anyone can ask for when trying to break 80.

Depending on the rest of your game, if you can consistently hit it 220-230 off the tee and you're playing 6000-6300 yard courses/tees, not only can you consistently shoot in the 70's (and yes, they would be a legit 70's), that's long enough to approach scratch. Once you're there, moving back won't add many, if any, strokes to your score, even if you're still driving it the same distance, though you'll see more of those 180 yard approaches then. At that point, though, you'll be able to hit those shots with more confidence. [b]Learning to score is different than learning to hit the ball. Lots of sweet swingers on the range that can't break 80, and lots of screwy looking range dudes that are scratch golfers.[/b] At ~6300 yards, there are very few 400 yard par 4's and few 180 yard par 3's. Driving it 220-230, you should have mostly 6i or less into the fours, you can reach all the fives and scratch it around the green on all the threes. That's a formula for shooting in the 70's if your game is up to snuff. The fact is that if you put a golfer that shoots mid 80's-90 on the ladies tees, they aren't going to score much better. I'm sure some mid-80's golfer might jump in and say they can shoot even par from the reds, but I'd have to see it to believe it. I've played from the reds with my wife many times for fun, and depending on the state of my game, the score just didn't change much (to my disappointment). I'm talking 5500 yards or so.

[Stevep21]

I disagree with playing off womens and not shooting lower, I can't remember the last time I missed a green with a wedge, or at least severly missed a green with a wedge, whereas my 3 iron, a bad shot I can probably miss the green by 40 yards, securing my bogey at best. I haven't tried it but I do imagine I could play to scratch off women's tees.

I think it depends on the strengths of your game, the OP is struggling from 180+ so ofcourse having less distance in would mean more GIR for him and a better score which he would get off women's tees and from a longer drive. I consider the strengths of my game my Driver aslong as it isn't a dogleg right :) and my wedge play from 110-140, I haven't played against many people that I wouldn't play for money if we just went around and dropped the ball at 135 yards and see who scored the best, so I'm not so sure about your women's tees argument :) especially when applied to OP

[LovinItAll]

I disagree with playing off womens and not shooting lower, I can't remember the last time I missed a green with a wedge, or at least severly missed a green with a wedge, whereas my 3 iron, a bad shot I can probably miss the green by 40 yards, securing my bogey at best. I haven't tried it but I do imagine I could play to scratch off women's tees. I think it depends on the strengths of your game, the OP is struggling from 180+ so ofcourse having less distance in would mean more GIR for him and a better score which he would get off women's tees and from a longer drive. I consider the strengths of my game my Driver aslong as it isn't a dogleg right :) and my wedge play from 110-140, I haven't played against many people that I wouldn't play for money if we just went around and dropped the ball at 135 yards and see who scored the best, so I'm not so sure about your women's tees argument :) especially when applied to OP

And you're not shooting 85+, which was a big point of my post.