How to run an event with fair handicaps

[golf1million]

Need your ideas, comments and suggestions.

I am a golf event organiser and I am planning a Massive Amateur event in 2014 that will have 100 randomly selected amateur golfers playing in it...all with registered official handicaps from Countries all over the world.

The question I have is how do I make sure the handicaps players have are fair?

It will be a 2 day stableford event followed by 2 days of Matchplay for the top 8 after day 2, to get a winner.

3/4 handicap events I feel help a little with this problem.

your thoughts?

[David in FL]

75% hcp helps. Better yet, play gross. What do you mean by "randomly selected"? Don't know that I've ever, seen a handicapped event without allegations (usually valid) of sandbagging.

[golf1million]

Originally Posted by David in FL

75% hcp helps. Better yet, play gross.

What do you mean by "randomly selected"?

Don't know that I've ever, seen a handicapped event without allegations (usually valid) of sandbagging.

We are going to run an event where the final 100 players get drawn at random, lottery style.

It is going to be the biggest Amateur golf event ever and very controversial but not much I can do about that.

Just want to make sure that I have the most fair handicap system possible for it as the prize will be BIG.

[Audaxi]

Ummm...You realize amateurs can only accept prizes of up to $500 in value unless they forfeit their amatuer status, correct? Therefore, it's kinda hard to have a BIG prize at an amateur event, unless it's one where the winner turns pro or something.

[Golfingdad]

People are shameless.  If you have an event where the prize is big enough, I don't see how you can expect to avoid sandbaggers.  Because the system (here in America) at least, allows people to "set" their own handicaps as it suits them, there is really nothing you can do about it.

The only thing that I could think might work, if its even possible, would be to set people's handicaps based solely on verifiable tournament rounds.

I always come back to the bowling comparison.  While it is certainly possible to sandbag in bowling (and people do), they would still have to tank it during actual league play to lower their average.  You can't walk into the alley by yourself on a Saturday morning, throw 20 gutter balls, and just go online and post a 0.

That is a dilemma the USGA handicapping system probably can't ever solve because most people just don't play in tournaments.

[David in FL]

People are shameless.  If you have an event where the prize is big enough, I don't see how you can expect to avoid sandbaggers.  Because the system (here in America) at least, allows people to "set" their own handicaps as it suits them, there is really nothing you can do about it. The only thing that I could think might work, if its even possible, would be to set people's handicaps based solely on verifiable tournament rounds. I always come back to the bowling comparison.  While it is certainly possible to sandbag in bowling (and people do), they would still have to tank it during actual league play to lower their average.  You can't walk into the alley by yourself on a Saturday morning, throw 20 gutter balls, and just go online and post a 0. That is a dilemma the USGA handicapping system probably can't ever solve because most people just don't play in tournaments.

Absolutely right. The only time I ever consider playing a net game is with people I know, and play with a lot.

[AmazingWhacker]

Here's my idea:

During the first day or first 2 days, everybody plays off scratch.  The top however many get to advance to phase 2.  For phase 2, handicaps based on phase1 are used.

It's true, of course, that somebody could sandbag it during the first couple days . .playing poorly but well enough to advance.  To make this more difficult, don't publish the scores and the "cut line" until the end of phase1.

I have no idea if it would work or not but it sounds good, anyway.

[golf1million]

Originally Posted by Audaxi

Ummm...You realize amateurs can only accept prizes of up to $500 in value unless they forfeit their amatuer status, correct? Therefore, it's kinda hard to have a BIG prize at an amateur event, unless it's one where the winner turns pro or something.

Not exactly correct.

I have a way of the winner of the event getting $1,000,000 and not affecting their amateur status.

Can't reveal until the event launch in Nov-Dec.

It will change the way golf in played in my opinion and as for watching total amateurs playing under that pressure. I think it will make great TV.

Entry will cost €25 euro and you can have unlimited entries.

The final 100 will get all expenses trip to Possibly (Thailand or Vietnam)  for the actual event.

We are also playing one hole on day 2, nearest the pin wins $100,000.

Can't wait to release the details...!!!

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by golf1million

Not exactly correct.

I have a way of the winner of the event getting $1,000,000 and not affecting their amateur status.

Can't reveal until the event launch in Nov-Dec.

It will change the way golf in played in my opinion and as for watching total amateurs playing under that pressure. I think it will make great TV.

Entry will cost €25 euro and you can have unlimited entries.

The final 100 will get all expenses trip to Possibly (Thailand or Vietnam)  for the actual event.

We are also playing one hole on day 2, nearest the pin wins $100,000.

Can't wait to release the details...!!!

Good luck with all of that.

Sounds like a giant fiasco waiting to happen, but I hope, for your sake, it runs smoothly.

[golf1million]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Good luck with all of that.

Sounds like a giant fiasco waiting to happen, but I hope, for your sake, it runs smoothly.

Will all be recorded for TV so everything will be on camera and every group and pairing will have a rules official with them.

Just want to get the best possible format to make the event as fair as possible.

Maybe 2 rounds of strokeplay points and then the final 8 matchplay.

I personally find strokeplay the ultimate golf challenge as you got to play 100% all the time or ur fu***d.

[David in FL]

Let me guess. You're paying for it all out of the lottery type entry fees?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by golf1million

Will all be recorded for TV so everything will be on camera and every group and pairing will have a rules official with them.

Just want to get the best possible format to make the event as fair as possible.

Maybe 2 rounds of strokeplay points and then the final 8 matchplay.

I personally find strokeplay the ultimate golf challenge as you got to play 100% all the time or ur fu***d.

That's all great.  But the problems with sandbagging don't happen during the tournament, they happen long before.  Sandbaggers can certainly follow the rules during your tournament, especially since all is being recorded.

But what you didn't see is all the rounds they played and posted prior to the tournament to jack that handicap up as high as possible to give themselves the best possible chance at winning.  I just don't see how you police that to make it fair.  Everybody who enters your tournament with legit handicaps is giving their money away unless you find the magic solution.

How about this:  The morning before the first day of the tournament, strap all of the players into a polygraph machine and ask them if they sandbag?  Sounds silly but short of that, I see no way to ensure that your tournament is even remotely fair.

[golf1million]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

That's all great.  But the problems with sandbagging don't happen during the tournament, they happen long before.  Sandbaggers can certainly follow the rules during your tournament, especially since all is being recorded.

But what you didn't see is all the rounds they played and posted prior to the tournament to jack that handicap up as high as possible to give themselves the best possible chance at winning.  I just don't see how you police that to make it fair.  Everybody who enters your tournament with legit handicaps is giving their money away unless you find the magic solution.

How about this:  The morning before the first day of the tournament, strap all of the players into a polygraph machine and ask them if they sandbag?  Sounds silly but short of that, I see no way to ensure that your tournament is even remotely fair.

3/4 handicap levels out the difference between the high handicaps and the lower.

Strokeplay is also a more true test of golf.

Then it is down to nerve in matchplay.

As the players are drawn out in a lottery style they have no time to accumulate .1 strokes back before the event as the handicap they have at the time of the draw will be their handocap and it is unlikely that players would play bad all year on the off chance that they get picked for the final 100 in an event that would be months away.

One thing that I think will help all players is that they will have 3 months to get coaching before the event and with $1,000,000 at stake I am sure everyone of the final 100 would be much improved golfers by the time comes to play the event. Should level things out a bit...!!!

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by golf1million

As the players are drawn out in a lottery style they have no time to accumulate .1 strokes back before the event as the handicap they have at the time of the draw will be their handocap and it is unlikely that players would play bad all year on the off chance that they get picked for the final 100 in an event that would be months away.

The problem is, most sandbaggers are already playing bad all year since that what they do. It doesn't matter what the odds are of getting into your tournament - they're sandbagging anyway for all the other tournaments they might be playing in as well. Seems that you'd need to use only tournament scores to calculate handicaps to get around this.

Originally Posted by golf1million

One thing that I think will help all players is that they will have 3 months to get coaching before the event and with $1,000,000 at stake I am sure everyone of the final 100 would be much improved golfers by the time comes to play the event. Should level things out a bit...!!!

Then you're penalizing low handicappers, since they have less room for improvement.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just giving you some food for thought.

[golf1million]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

The problem is, most sandbaggers are already playing bad all year since that what they do. It doesn't matter what the odds are of getting into your tournament - they're sandbagging anyway for all the other tournaments they might be playing in as well. Seems that you'd need to use only tournament scores to calculate handicaps to get around this.

Then you're penalizing low handicappers, since they have less room for improvement.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just giving you some food for thought.

Low handicappers will play better under pressure so this equals this out...

At the end of the day it will be about who performs best over 4 days of pressure golf.

And trust me the pressure will get to every player.

When you think of the mistakes of some of the greats under pressure...imagine amateur golfers in the same position for $1,000,000.

I personally would give anything to experience that pressure and experience..and at the end of the day all 100 get a golf holidayand experience of a lifetime.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

The problem is, most sandbaggers are already playing bad all year since that what they do. It doesn't matter what the odds are of getting into your tournament - they're sandbagging anyway for all the other tournaments they might be playing in as well.

^^ This ^^

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

The problem is, most sandbaggers are already playing bad all year since that what they do. It doesn't matter what the odds are of getting into your tournament - they're sandbagging anyway for all the other tournaments they might be playing in as well.

... and this ^^^

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

The problem is, most sandbaggers are already playing bad all year since that what they do. It doesn't matter what the odds are of getting into your tournament - they're sandbagging anyway for all the other tournaments they might be playing in as well.

Oh, and also this. ^^^

Your lottery style drawing will definitely allow for SOME honest players to make it in the tournament, but you WILL have a lot of sandbaggers.  Look at it this way ... everybody on this thread who is not a sandbagger wouldn't even bother to enter the tournament because we "know" we have no chance.

Short of setting up some pre-qualifying tournaments with rules officials to set the handicaps (still wouldn't matter because sandbagging isn't easily identifiable and provable) or my (semi) silly suggestion of giving polygraph tests to all entrants, there is NO WAY your tournament isn't infiltrated by sandbaggers.

The problem can't be stopped when there is a $50 gift certificate to Applebee's on the line, so how would you expect to stop it when there was 1 mil up for grabs?

You'd almost be better off allowing everybody to keep adjusting their handicaps until the tournament starts, then you would have a more "level" playing field because they are all going to be sandbagging.  Who can do it the best?  It would be comical.  The winner could end up shooting a net 36 or something.  (And the guy who comes in second with a 43 will have the audacity to call the winner a cheater!)

[AmazingWhacker]

I may be alone in this .. but I actually don't think watching high handicappers play under pressure will make for great tv. Maybe the highlights could make 15 minutes of great tv.

Also - doing some math and guessing . . .I guess maybe 30,000 people need to buy a "lottery ticket" in order for there to be a million dollar prize?  Or is thier backing from the TV company?

Anyway - sounds crazy!  Good luck and let us know when to set our DVR's.

[David in FL]

I may be alone in this .. but I actually don't think watching high handicappers play under pressure will make for great tv. Maybe the highlights could make 15 minutes of great tv. Also - doing some math and guessing . . .I guess maybe 30,000 people need to buy a "lottery ticket" in order for there to be a million dollar prize?  Or is thier backing from the TV company? Anyway - sounds crazy!  Good luck and let us know when to set our DVR's.

Which is why it feels like a scam to me. But maybe that's just me......