Sandbaggers ruin tournaments

[Cgjohnst]

Is it common for people to sandbag in tournaments? I just finished a two-man scramble tournament and the scores were ridiculous. We played some of our best golf ever and shot 7 under par after our handicap was taken into account. So we have a 63 on the board. We ended up coming in dead last place behind a bunch of teams in the low 50s and 40s. The winning team listed a 40 handicap per person, which was written down as a 29 together. They shot a 77 before the handicap was taken into account. It was just a local charity tournament so it isn't a huge deal, but still...it is pretty frustrating. Do people do this a lot?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Cgjohnst

Is it common for people to sandbag in tournaments? I just finished a two-man scramble tournament and the scores were ridiculous. We played some of our best golf ever and shot 7 under par after our handicap was taken into account. So we have a 63 on the board. We ended up coming in dead last place behind a bunch of teams in the low 50s and 40s. The winning team listed a 40 handicap per person, which was written down as a 29 together. They shot a 77 before the handicap was taken into account. It was just a local charity tournament so it isn't a huge deal, but still...it is pretty frustrating. Do people do this a lot?

In real golf tournaments, sandbagging exists but it's not rampant. In scrambles though, sandbagging (and outright cheating) are very, very, very common, as is the experience you describe above. Do a search for "scramble" in this forum and you'll read some crazy stories.

[Stewie007]

I remember the days when I was first playing golf. I was introduced to the idea of a handicap and I didn't really understand what it meant. Someone explained it to me. Consequently, I raised and eyebrow and considered it "sanctioned cheating." It doesn't level the playing field. The better golfer still wins. If I shot a 105 and bombed many shots, I don't see how it makes me an equal competitor just because I got a 30 next to my name that means I can give myself a substantial "Gimmie."

I think it is the STUPIDEST system in the world of sports. Imagine Tennis............

"Oh, I'm sorry Miss Williams, your opponent had a handicap that means even though you kicked her ass, she still wins."

ROTFLMFAO!!!! hehehehehe

Edit: In fact, I'm ditching my stupid handicap since I haven't tracked it since round 4 of last year.... hehe

[Stewie007]

oops....

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Stewie007

I remember the days when I was first playing golf. I was introduced to the idea of a handicap and I didn't really understand what it meant. Someone explained it to me. Consequently, I raised and eyebrow and considered it "sanctioned cheating." It doesn't level the playing field. The better golfer still wins. If I shot a 105 and bombed many shots, I don't see how it makes me an equal competitor just because I got a 30 next to my name that means I can give myself a substantial "Gimmie."

I think it is the STUPIDEST system in the world of sports. Imagine Tennis............

"Oh, I'm sorry Miss Williams, your opponent had a handicap that means even though you kicked her ass, she still wins."

ROTFLMFAO!!!! hehehehehe

Edit: In fact, I'm ditching my stupid handicap since I haven't tracked it since round 4 of last year.... hehe

Then don't plan on playing in any competition, since club competitions virtually all require that you have a handicap unless you play scratch.  If you are that good, fine, but don't expect anyone other than another scratch golfer to get in a game with you.

[Cgjohnst]

It seems like a necessary evil to have tournaments. It just blew my mind that two people who supposedly shoot 40 over par on average can shoot a 77. It took a lot of the fun out of playing =/

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Cgjohnst

It seems like a necessary evil to have tournaments. It just blew my mind that two people who supposedly shoot 40 over par on average can shoot a 77. It took a lot of the fun out of playing =/

I agree with you that that was a really bad situation.  There are ways to get around sandbagging, but they take some effort on the part of the organizers.

[boogielicious]

The HC system works well in my league.  We have a small league with a range of ages and abilities.  the point system with HC levels the field and gives everyone a chance.  But, we all know each other pretty well after several years.  With strangers, I can see it being frustrating.  With honest players, it is a very good system.

[Parker0065]

Oh Boy, good ole Handicapped Golf! As a scratch player I avoid them at all costs but they are a neccesary evil. At my home course we have two major events, the club championship which is pure medal play(hooray!), and then there's the club matchplay championship which is setup by using 80% of a players handicap. I've won our stroke play club championship and I've made it to the matchplay finals twice in three attempts but have never won it. Both times I made it to the finals were against 12 handicappers that I had to give them 9-10 shots and in both cases the guy's had their "supposed" best rounds of the year on pace to shooting mid-low 70's rounds. Meaning I had to be on pace to shooting near the course record both times to have a chance, lol.

Did that mean they fluffed their handicaps a little, probably but I think just the nature of handicapping a matchplay event gives the lesser player a slight advantage. The higher handicap player can play more relaxed knowing their getting strokes and they can blow up and have a 10 on one hole and still win. The scratch player better be a birdie machine that day or their going home, especially when your giving 10 strokes and your opponent is making par after par. I haven't played in the Matchplay event in a few years more due to time constraints than anything else but another scratch player at the club and I joke about how we boycott the event because of all the 12-15 handicappers having the rounds of their life when they play us, lol! Maybe I'll give it another shot next year if my schedule permits. I don't have a issue with how they run the event because without using handicaps it would always come down to myself and the two other scratch players at the club. We already dominate the Club Championship so the Matchplay gives everyone a chance to win a trophy!

To the OP, there probably was some sandbagging but usually handicaped scramble net scores are in the 50's or lower. It's just the nature of the beast and they are useless for myself to play in unless they also provide prizes for low gross, then I have a chance.

[bplewis24]

Yes, Sandbagging is very real and it ruins some tournaments.  I've played in a couple two-person best-ball tournaments over the past couple weeks, and the winning net scores for the top flight were 54 and 49 respectively.  I didn't stick around for the announcement of the 49, but I asked my playing partner what the winning score ended up being.  You'd have to sandbag to get that kind of score, I don't care how well you "ham-and-egg" it.

My goal is to get myself into the mid-to-low single digits so that I can play in some gross tournaments and at least have some fun being in the running, knowing that I probably still have no chance to win.  But I'd rather lose to a guy that beats me because he's better than me, than to a guy who beats me because he's worse than me proportionate to the score he shot that was worse than me.

I think the reality is that net stroke play club events are only as reliable as the handicap board is pro-active in deterring sandbagging...and even they can only go so far before a trend is established.  My club is very lax on sandbagging, and as such I find myself every once in a while being torn between my personal, stated goal of trying to become a single-digit, and my own compulsion to be competitive in the club events (which would mean NOT posting some of my low scores).  I always post, but I know when I do that it's making it harder for me to be competitive in a league of sandbaggers.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Parker0065

To the OP, there probably was some sandbagging but usually handicaped scramble net scores are in the 50's or lower. It's just the nature of the beast and they are useless for myself to play in unless they also provide prizes for low gross, then I have a chance.

How can you have a low gross when you aren't playing your ball from tee to green under the rules (unless your team uses your ball on every shot - a most unlikely circumstance)?

[gwlee7]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

How can you have a low gross when you aren't playing your ball from tee to green under the rules (unless your team uses your ball on every shot - a most unlikely circumstance)?

In these scam bles, a lot of times you will have a "gross" score which is what your team shot before the handicap adjustment is applied.  The adjustment is usually some sort of "average" of the team members individual handicap.

[Stewie007]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Then don't plan on playing in any competition, since club competitions virtually all require that you have a handicap unless you play scratch.  If you are that good, fine, but don't expect anyone other than another scratch golfer to get in a game with you.

Friendly competitions are enough for me.

I know why the handicap exists, I was just being a wise guy. (hence all the hehehe haw haw haw)

I suppose maybe its more difficult for golf leagues to be split up into skill groups so the handicap eliminates that complexity. It would seem logical to use the handicap to mark off leagues and 30s don't play with 4s. But I guess there may not be enough participation for that.

Besides, I was just making a point in a sort of tongue in cheek way that shaving strokes is essentially a mulligan. I know the system isn't going anywhere and it serves a purpose. :)

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by gwlee7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

How can you have a low gross when you aren't playing your ball from tee to green under the rules (unless your team uses your ball on every shot - a most unlikely circumstance)?

In these scambles, a lot of times you will have a "gross" score which is what your team shot before the handicap adjustment is applied.  The adjustment is usually some sort of "average" of the team members individual handicap.

Explain how you apply an individual handicap in a scramble?    See if you can figure it out without looking at my answer.

In my Men's Club we formed the teams and flighted the tournament based on the total team handicap.  After that the team score was scratch.  This is the only possible way to play a scramble with handicaps applied.  But of course in order to be fair, the handicaps must be verifiable.  You simply cannot apply individual handicaps in a competition where the players are not playing their own ball from tee to green.  How do you possible apply an individual handicap where Player A's ball is used for the drive, then Player B hits the best second shot from that spot, then Player C holes the putt from where Player B's ball ended up?  Individual handicaps are only relevant for positioning the team in the proper flight, and that is only meaningful if the handicaps can be verified.  Most scrambles are poorly organized by people who haven't a clue how to go about it.

[onesome]

Sandbagging probably isn't nearly as much an issue in these so called "scramble tournaments" as much as blatant cheating is. A good portion of people who play in these things are recreational players at best meaning the clubs probably had a years worth of dust on them when they decided to go out to this thing. Some of these people just simply don't give a damn about keeping an accurate score versus getting good and liqouered up and will more than likely make rulings in their favor despite the rules of golf and it seems that that is the real contest versus shooting low scores.

[x129]

You made the finals 2 out of 3 times. That doesn't sound like a tournament with proper handicaps unless you only have like 1 rounds to get to the final.  Of course all that is saying is that you are playing the vanity caps early and the sandbaggers in the final.

As you pointed out match play scoring favors the guys that have blow up holes. Those guys tend to be the high handicappers. Who it hurts is the consistant guys like my Dad who has zero distance these days but  who is a consistant par or bogey on every hole.

Quote:

Oh Boy, good ole Handicapped Golf! As a scratch player I avoid them at all costs but they are a neccesary evil. At my home course we have two major events, the club championship which is pure medal play(hooray!), and then there's the club matchplay championship which is setup by using 80% of a players handicap. I've won our stroke play club championship and I've made it to the matchplay finals twice in three attempts but have never won it. Both times I made it to the finals were against 12 handicappers that I had to give them 9-10 shots and in both cases the guy's had their "supposed" best rounds of the year on pace to shooting mid-low 70's rounds. Meaning I had to be on pace to shooting near the course record both times to have a chance, lol.

Did that mean they fluffed their handicaps a little, probably but I think just the nature of handicapping a matchplay event gives the lesser player a slight advantage. The higher handicap player can play more relaxed knowing their getting strokes and they can blow up and have a 10 on one hole and still win. The scratch player better be a birdie machine that day or their going home, especially when your giving 10 strokes and your opponent is making par after par. I haven't played in the Matchplay event in a few years more due to time constraints than anything else but another scratch player at the club and I joke about how we boycott the event because of all the 12-15 handicappers having the rounds of their life when they play us, lol! Maybe I'll give it another shot next year if my schedule permits. I don't have a issue with how they run the event because without using handicaps it would always come down to myself and the two other scratch players at the club. We already dominate the Club Championship so the Matchplay gives everyone a chance to win a trophy!

To the OP, there probably was some sandbagging but usually handicaped scramble net scores are in the 50's or lower. It's just the nature of the beast and they are useless for myself to play in unless they also provide prizes for low gross, then I have a chance.

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Explain how you apply an individual handicap in a scramble?    See if you can figure it out without looking at my answer.

At my club they add the two (sometimes four) handicaps and the team handicap is something less than 50% (25% for four) of that (I don't remember the exact percentages.  That calculated team handicap is applied to the team gross score.  This same method is used for Best Ball (Better Ball) team tournaments only the percentages are different than for scramble.

[VealCutlet]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

At my club they add the two (sometimes four) handicaps and the team handicap is something less than 50% (25% for four) of that (I don't remember the exact percentages.  That calculated team handicap is applied to the team gross score.  This same method is used for Best Ball (Better Ball) team tournaments only the percentages are different than for scramble.

I just played one a few weeks ago, and I believe that it works out to essentially half of the group's average handicap.  so if four 10-handicaps played as a team, 5 strokes would be deducted from the submitted team score.

I really, really, dislike scrambles for all of the above-mentioned reasons.