Getting fitted for putter (Scotty Cameron)

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Point well taken. I guess if Arnie was given the clubs for free that's one thing but to spend / waste all that money on clubs that you won't ever play again seems a bit too wasteful for me unless you're a collector.  I don't mind spending money on clubs, I actually enjoy it, but even I have my limits.

Arnie is a tinkerer, and I think he said many of the clubs were sent to him by Callaway or other golf club designers, and some he made himself.  Besides, think about the useless crap most sports gazillionaires blow their cash on.  Could you see Arnie rocking a huge diamond and ruby encrusted belt buckle like A.Kim?  Couple of those would probably wipe out his club collection pretty fast.  (But then again, jets are pretty expensive too, and Arnie has a few of those.)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by k-troop

Putter fitting to me is an enigmatic concept.  For tour pros, or anyone with skill, sufficient eye-hand coordination, and practice, you should be able to perform with almost any putter.

No, sorry, that's simply not true at all. Not only is it untrue psychologically, but it's not true from an aiming perspective either.

The entire premise behind the alignment portion of the fitting an Edel fitter goes through is this: if you can't aim your putter (less than 5% of our students can aim their putter inside the hole from ten feet), your stroke will have to compensate for the aim, and you'll "build" a poor stroke.

PGA Tour players are just like you and I - except they can practice their compensations more. But I guarantee you that if I give a good PGA Tour player who is a left-aimer-blocker a putter that he naturally lines up to the right, he's going to putt poorly.

So say a PGA Tour player, who might spend ten hours a week (off-week) practicing his putting, gets to where he can consistently block his left-aiming putter the right amount. What if he slacks off, has a bad putting week, and switches putters? Now his compensations are all over the place and he might not hit the hole for anything. You can only train yourself to hit the line if you stick with ONE putter, and the point a fitter would make is that you're better off making sure that ONE putter is one you can aim properly from the get-go.

Originally Posted by k-troop

Most of us don't have that level of skill and coordination, and don't practice enough to putt like a tour pro.  So, if we can get a putter that eliminates our sight biases (i.e. naturally lines up on the exact lines we see standing over the ball) then you can improve without all that practice.  And, if it works, why wouldn't a tour pro--whose livelihood depends on putting well--take advantage of it?

Two reasons. Okay, three.

1. Because if they've grooved a push-block style stroke, they're going to suck with a putter they can aim, and most guys don't have the time to suck on the PGA Tour and miss a bunch of cuts, because they need to earn their PGA Tour card for next year.
2. Sponsorship deals.
3. Superstition and other stupid reasons.

Don't underestimate the power of #3, btw.

Originally Posted by k-troop

The weighting doesn't make much sense to me though.  You have to practice feel and pace on the greens.  Whether you're using a heavy putter or a light putter, you still have to train your body how hard to swing the club to achieve a specific pace on your putts.  For some, "heavier" or "lighter" might feel more comfortable, but beyond that I think whatever weight you choose is irrelevant until you can turn that weight into a proper pace.

Not true. I've said several times on this site and elsewhere that the weighting has an almost more impressive effect on the putter fitting than the alignment work.

People's strokes change. People's ability to control distance changes.

Let's go to an extreme. Let's say I give you a putter with a head weight of 200g only when you normally putt with a 350g head. You're ALWAYS going to suck more with that "super light" putter than you will with your current putter. Always. Your distance control will be terrible at the same levels of practice. 100% guaranteed. Your body - and everyone's slightly different - senses speed by the pressure on the hands, and changing the weight on the putter changes the pressure and thus how fast you perceive (feel) the putter moving.

Or, to take another approach: swingweight matters with every other club in the bag - why wouldn't it also matter on a putter?

Originally Posted by k-troop

You have to get your eyes directly over the ball, for starters--that way the line you're looking down is the same line you're putting on.

I don't agree. It's not a commonality of the game's best putters. There are plenty of times I'd rather someone's eyes be slightly inside the ball than over top of it.

And the people you're talking about? Guess what? They probably need a shorter putter, or a more upright putter, or a combination. IOW, they need to be fitted properly.

Originally Posted by k-troop

Then there's the simple act of setting up square, which few people do (except on tour, of course).

You'd be surprised.

Originally Posted by k-troop

Putting is really pretty simple if you do those three things.  And a "fitted" putter is only going to fix tiny percentages.  It won't do anything about the huge flaws in setup that I see killing most folks on the greens.

Putting is a teeny percentage game! How large is your margin of error from 10 feet away? It's barely more than half of one degree ( +/- 0.549° )!!!

Most people set up because their putters aren't properly fitted, and beyond that, they're TRYING to make putts. You'd set up funny too if your putter was consistently aimed eight inches left of the hole from six feet. Yet we see that all the time - eyes well inside the ball, right elbow tucked, left elbow out, ball position back - all so they can TRY to push the putt enough to get it started on a decent line.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I don't want anyone to spend money needlessly which is why I asked how they helped you.  Let's be realistic, golf manufacturers are at the point where products are evolutionary not revolutionary, so it appears they've all jumped onto the fiting band wagon.  Where as 10 years ago you just bought a driver or putter off the rack, you now should be fit for one.

I get the science, but beyond the science there needs to be tangible results which is what I was looking for from you.  So in the end how many strokes do you believe the Edel putter saves you per round?

Several.

And I know of at least a few people who stopped yipping because they got an Edel putter. So for them the number could be as high as 10-12 strokes.

Look, it's this simple: a properly fit putter removes variables. If you miss putts with a putter you aim properly and can control the distance on well, then your stroke is messed up. So you fix that.

I guarantee that if I give everyone here a putter they aim well to the left, everyone here will develop compensations. Compensations are, by their very nature, "bad" or inefficient, and difficult to repeat consistently (particularly on little practice).

You only need to buy one putter for the rest of your life. It SAVES money. Edel doesn't sell multiple putters to the same guy. They sell them once, and then they're done. And drivers that you can fit to yourself don't cost more than drivers from five or six years ago, so that point doesn't really hold up, either.

P.S. Tiger used to aim 4° right of his line. That's why he focused on "releasing the toe" so much - he had to try to pull putts. When he had time to practice it, we saw how good he could be, but as soon as his practice time with the putter dropped, we saw that even he would miss even really, really short putts because his "release" timing was off.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by iacas

1.  No, sorry, that's simply not true at all. Not only is it untrue psychologically, but it's not true from an aiming perspective either.

The entire premise behind the alignment portion of the fitting an Edel fitter goes through is this: if you can't aim your putter (less than 5% of our students can aim their putter inside the hole from ten feet), your stroke will have to compensate for the aim, and you'll "build" a poor stroke.

PGA Tour players are just like you and I - except they can practice their compensations more. But I guarantee you that if I give a good PGA Tour player who is a left-aimer-blocker a putter that he naturally lines up to the right, he's going to putt poorly.

So say a PGA Tour player, who might spend ten hours a week (off-week) practicing his putting, gets to where he can consistently block his left-aiming putter the right amount. What if he slacks off, has a bad putting week, and switches putters? Now his compensations are all over the place and he might not hit the hole for anything. You can only train yourself to hit the line if you stick with ONE putter, and the point a fitter would make is that you're better off making sure that ONE putter is one you can aim properly from the get-go.

2.  Two reasons. Okay, three.

Because if they've grooved a push-block style stroke, they're going to suck with a putter they can aim, and most guys don't have the time to suck on the PGA Tour and miss a bunch of cuts, because they need to earn their PGA Tour card for next year.

Sponsorship deals.

Superstition and other stupid reasons.

Don't underestimate the power of #3, btw.

3.  Not true. I've said several times on this site and elsewhere that the weighting has an almost more impressive effect on the putter fitting than the alignment work.

People's strokes change. People's ability to control distance changes.

Let's go to an extreme. Let's say I give you a putter with a head weight of 200g only when you normally putt with a 350g head. You're ALWAYS going to suck more with that "super light" putter than you will with your current putter. Always. Your distance control will be terrible at the same levels of practice. 100% guaranteed. Your body - and everyone's slightly different - senses speed by the pressure on the hands, and changing the weight on the putter changes the pressure and thus how fast you perceive (feel) the putter moving.

Or, to take another approach: swingweight matters with every other club in the bag - why wouldn't it also matter on a putter?

4.  I don't agree. It's not a commonality of the game's best putters. There are plenty of times I'd rather someone's eyes be slightly inside the ball than over top of it.

And the people you're talking about? Guess what? They probably need a shorter putter, or a more upright putter, or a combination. IOW, they need to be fitted properly.

You'd be surprised.

5.  Putting is a teeny percentage game! How large is your margin of error from 10 feet away? It's barely more than half of one degree (+/- 0.549°)!!!

Most people set up because their putters aren't properly fitted, and beyond that, they're TRYING to make putts. You'd set up funny too if your putter was consistently aimed eight inches left of the hole from six feet. Yet we see that all the time - eyes well inside the ball, right elbow tucked, left elbow out, ball position back - all so they can TRY to push the putt enough to get it started on a decent line.

6.  P.S. Tiger used to aim 4° right of his line. That's why he focused on "releasing the toe" so much - he had to try to pull putts. When he had time to practice it, we saw how good he could be, but as soon as his practice time with the putter dropped, we saw that even he would miss even really, really short putts because his "release" timing was off.

1.  So Jack, Seve, Ben weren't great putters?  I don't remember any of them ever talking about being fitted with a custom putter with sight lines, variable lie/loft, etc.

2.  I said that pros could benefit from an Edel fitting.  I think I could probably benefit from an Edel fitting, and I'm a pretty good putter--just not always 100% confident that I'm seeing the line correctly.  I think that good putters, with good fundamentals, could benefit from this.  And I also think that all of those alignment contraptions and drills you see on greens are intended to do the same thing that an Edel putter is designed to do:  give the player confidence that the line he thinks he's putting on is the line he's actually putting on.

3.  Again, what I said was that if the weight "feels" good, then it will work--but you have to practice.  Your 150-gram difference argument is irrelevant.  The 5-10 gram difference is what we're talking about, and I fail to see how that is going to make much of a difference.  You still have to feel the pace, and that pace is going to be dependent on the actual weight of the putter, and it will take practice with whatever weight you're using.

4.  But you would agree that eyes over the ball is superior to eyes over the toes, 20 or so inches inside the putting line, right?  You're talking about eyes over the hosel of a heel-shafted putter, which is pretty close to the same thing.  A differential basically half the diameter of the hole.

5.  My opinion, but the fitting will correct those small alignment errors that someone with good putting fundamentals still has.  I don't see how a putter fitting is going to magically correct someone who has the toe up 20*, eyes over the toes, alignment way open, and plays the ball off of the back foot (which, in my observation, is a common combination of flaws among crappy golfers).  That player would be better off starting over from scratch with solid fundamentals, and learning how to hit a proper putting stroke.  Until you can do that, "fitting" seems pretty meaningless.

6.  You've said this about Tiger before, and I agree that perfect fundamentals would be better than compensations.  But it's hard to argue that Tiger was a pretty freaking great putter--arguably the best of all time.  So, I'll refer you back to #1:  Tiger got it done, better than anyone ever has, by knowing his own stroke--not by getting fitted.  He supports the argument that with talent and practice, a pro can figure out how to putt with what they have.  (Obviously, we don't know how much Tiger's Scotty was tinkered.)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by k-troop

1.  So Jack, Seve, Ben weren't great putters?  I don't remember any of them ever talking about being fitted with a custom putter with sight lines, variable lie/loft, etc.

Straw man much? I never said that or anything close to that.

If I spoke about pros at all, it was to point out that they spend 10+ hours a week putting and thus can build and time the compensations for their particular putters, and additionally, they can try out a few hundred putters before settling on the one they like, so they "fit" themselves to some degree anyway.

Originally Posted by k-troop

2.  I said that pros could benefit from an Edel fitting.  I think I could probably benefit from an Edel fitting, and I'm a pretty good putter--just not always 100% confident that I'm seeing the line correctly.  I think that good putters, with good fundamentals, could benefit from this.  And I also think that all of those alignment contraptions and drills you see on greens are intended to do the same thing that an Edel putter is designed to do:  give the player confidence that the line he thinks he's putting on is the line he's actually putting on.

The contraptions and drills simply have you getting better at your compensations. They don't have you actually aiming your putter any better.

I could give you a putter that you'd SWEAR is pointing well to the right (or left) of the target when it's pointing right at it.

Originally Posted by k-troop

3.  Again, what I said was that if the weight "feels" good, then it will work--but you have to practice.  Your 150-gram difference argument is irrelevant.  The 5-10 gram difference is what we're talking about, and I fail to see how that is going to make much of a difference.  You still have to feel the pace, and that pace is going to be dependent on the actual weight of the putter, and it will take practice with whatever weight you're using.

Feels aren't important. What matters is that the weight IS good, not that it "feels" good. Some people prefer the weight of a lighter putter, but after being shown the difference realize that they putt better with a heavier putter. Simple facts, man.

My example isn't irrelevant. You're only saying that because it doesn't suit you. And we're not talking about 5-10 grams difference. I've fit people into 390-gram putters. And even if we are talking about 5-10 gram differences, I've easily seen 10 grams make a noticeable difference in the way a putter performs. Edel's variable-weight putters come with 2x6g, 2x12g, and 2x21g weights and you will notice differences between those.

So while you "fail to see" it I've actually seen it many, many times by now. Can you get the right pace with any weight putter? Yes. But you're less likely to with an improper weight than with a proper weight. Very simple.

Originally Posted by k-troop

4.  But you would agree that eyes over the ball is superior to eyes over the toes, 20 or so inches inside the putting line, right?  You're talking about eyes over the hosel of a heel-shafted putter, which is pretty close to the same thing.  A differential basically half the diameter of the hole.

Not necessarily. Billy Casper often had his eyes outside the ball. There's no real commonality, and I don't remember the last time I saw someone with their eyes TWO FEET inside the golf ball. If I can't use 150g putters as an example you don't get to make up extreme examples either.

The eyes are "near" to being over top of the golf ball. Eyes inside the line tends to lead to a path to the right. Eyes outside the ball tends to lead to a path going left (both for righties). The fit (length, lie, etc.) can affect the way a player sets up to the ball too.

Originally Posted by k-troop

5.  My opinion, but the fitting will correct those small alignment errors that someone with good putting fundamentals still has.  I don't see how a putter fitting is going to magically correct someone who has the toe up 20*, eyes over the toes, alignment way open, and plays the ball off of the back foot (which, in my observation, is a common combination of flaws among crappy golfers).  That player would be better off starting over from scratch with solid fundamentals, and learning how to hit a proper putting stroke.  Until you can do that, "fitting" seems pretty meaningless.

What are good putting fundamentals? Good putters have three things in common: they start the ball online, they control their distance, and they read greens well. Beyond that, you could perhaps say the best putters all hit up about 2° with about 1° of dynamic loft, and the maximum speed of the putter is at or behind the ball - the putter is decelerating when it makes contact.

If you don't understand how a properly fit putter is going to correct for someone who has the toe up 20° then I don't know what to tell you (and 20°? Give me a break. You either play a lot of golf with Isao Aoki or some really bizarre golfers). I completely disagree that such a combination is a "common combination." I don't think I've EVER seen that combination.

And obviously someone THAT bad would benefit from not only a properly fit putter but some instruction or understanding on how to putt. That doesn't make your point like you think it does.

Your last piece says "get good fundamentals and then get fit for a putter" but that's precisely the problem: if you have a poorly fit putter, you can never really develop good fundamentals (not in the time available to most average golfers) because you're likely going to be compensating for alignment and speed.

I can flip it right around on you: a properly fit putter HELPS IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF PROPER FUNDAMENTALS because you don't have to compensate. If you pull a putt it's because you pulled the putt, not because you made a good stroke and the putter was lined up left.

Originally Posted by k-troop

6.  You've said this about Tiger before, and I agree that perfect fundamentals would be better than compensations.  But it's hard to argue that Tiger was a pretty freaking great putter--arguably the best of all time.  So, I'll refer you back to #1:  Tiger got it done, better than anyone ever has, by knowing his own stroke--not by getting fitted.  He supports the argument that with talent and practice, a pro can figure out how to putt with what they have.  (Obviously, we don't know how much Tiger's Scotty was tinkered.)

When you have 10+ hours a week to practice your putting, or 20 or so like Tiger did when he was putting his best, you let me know.

Until then, I'll point time and time again to the fact that even with thousands of hours of putting practice behind him, even Tiger Woods putted like a twelve-handicap when he was focusing a lot of his practice time on his full swing. Did you really think that supported your position?

[k-troop]

I'll just respond with "where I think I'm aimed" is where the ball goes when I hit a good putt, regardless of where a laser is pointed at address.  If I have a rifle sighted high/left because of a poor sight picture, but I look through it the same way every time, and the rounds hit the center of the target, then I'm "aimed" on target, regardless of what the boresight laser says.  Likewise, if Tiger is draining putts while "aimed" 4* left because of a poorly fitted putter, then so be it.

The rest of it is just you being argumentative in defense of your system.  Which I've already said I think is helpful, but not as helpful to really bad putters as a good, consistent setup position, which shouldn't require 1,000 words to refute.

[geauxforbroke]

I still haven't seen a good argument for not getting fitted for a putter...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by k-troop

The rest of it is just you being argumentative in defense of your system. Which I've already said I think is helpful, but not as helpful to really bad putters as a good, consistent setup position, which shouldn't require 1,000 words to refute.

Translation: you just can't refute it, so you just dismiss it.

Nobody on here's coming to me for a putter fitting - I'm sharing what I know to be true because I want to help people play better golf. Virtually everyone is a relatively decent putter, and I've never seen anyone with their eyes two feet inside the ball, the ball off their back foot, and the toe of their putter 20° up like the examples you had to give to try to prove your point.

Is it worth getting fitted for a putter if you can't break 100? No. But inside of that, and especially inside of a 20 handicap or so, it's definitely worth looking into. All you've got to lose are some compensations and some strokes from your score.

Originally Posted by geauxforbroke

I still haven't seen a good argument for not getting fitted for a putter...

I don't suspect you will.