Sandbagging- What is Permitted?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Maybe I should not have used sandbagging in the title...what I was trying to figure out is how hard do you have to try to comply with the handicap manual.

While I encounter more guys with vanity handicaps, I think there are certainly some guys who try harder when there is something on the line- not outright sandbaggers, but when there is nothing on the line they either don`t give a sh*t or become more concerned about speed of play.

The USGA Handicap manual says "Two basic premises underlie the USGA Handicap System, namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played..."

So how hard do you have to try when nothing is on the line?  Is everything short of intentionally missing a shot acceptable or do you have to give an effort similar to how you would with something on the line?

You even have a false premise in the post above.  I'm more concerned about pace of play in a competition than I am in a casual round, because there is usually a penalty attached to violating the tournament pace of play policy.  There certainly was in my Men's Club, and it was rigidly enforced.  In a casual round it's "Ho hum... the guys behind me are pissed off, but it's no skin off my back."

I treat both situations exactly the same.  If there is a reasonable chance of finding my ball, I give at least a perfunctory search.  If I get to where it disappeared and the odds are near zero of either finding it, or hitting it if found, then I go straight to my provisional ball and play on.  Spending 5 minutes in a hopeless search is a waste of everyone's time, no matter whether its casual or competition.  Spending 5 minutes searching for a ball which you won't be able to play if you do find it is even more wasteful, because then you may have to make the walk of shame and rehit yet again, thus losing even more time.   Abandoning a search is NOT sandbagging.

Such actions are NOT in opposition to the handicap manual, because as I've stated several times, they are not in violation of the rules of golf.  The Rules of Golf take precedence over the handicap manual, and they cover such things as you are so concerned about under etiquette, undue delay, pace of play.  Since you don't appear to buy my explanation, send an email to the USGA and ask them.  You will get the same answer. You are not allowed to do anything deliberately for the express purpose of padding your handicap , but that doesn't eliminate all options or choices while playing.  If you have reasons other than raising your handicap for making such a choice, and if that choice is allowed under the rules, then it is allowed under the handicap rules too.  If it wasn't, then those choices would not exist in the rules.

If you change your style of play from casual to tournament play, then that's your problem, and the problem of your competition handicap committee, not a problem of the system itself.  When properly implemented, the handicap system should have oversight to prevent of catch abusers.  Such oversight should be handled at the club level.  My Men's Club at a public muni was run that way (we had an active and involved handicap committee), so why can't a private or semi-private club do the same?  There are options available to a committee to assist in addressing possible sandbagging issues.  They can adjust a players handicap to just tournament scores,  They can freeze a player's handicap.  In an extreme case we actually made the atmosphere so uncomfortable that our worst sandbagger in the history of the club quit when he realized that he wasn't going to get away with it.

[MEfree]

Ok.  So here is a situation I have seen at least a 100 times.  Your group waited on the group ahead earlier in the round but you are currently about a half a hole behind.  You hit your putt for 4 three to five feet past the hole.  In this situation, I have seen players do all of the following:

A.  Go through their normal routine for their comeback putt and record their actual score.

B.  Give themselves the putt for 5.

C.  Rush their comeback putt and record a 5 whether they make it or not.

D.  Rush their comeback putt and record their actual score.

Which of the above do you deem correct under the rules of golf and the handicap guidelines?

[Putridgasbag]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If you change your style of play from casual to tournament play, then that's your problem, and the problem of your competition handicap committee, not a problem of the system itself.  When properly implemented, the handicap system should have oversight to prevent of catch abusers.  Such oversight should be handled at the club level.  My Men's Club at a public muni was run that way (we had an active and involved handicap committee), so why can't a private or semi-private club do the same?  There are options available to a committee to assist in addressing possible sandbagging issues.  They can adjust a players handicap to just tournament scores,  They can freeze a player's handicap.  In an extreme case we actually made the atmosphere so uncomfortable that our worst sandbagger in the history of the club quit when he realized that he wasn't going to get away with it.

While I agree with you on most parts I do have a quibble with the highlighted part. I believe that most people change the way they play in a casual round as opposed to a tournament round. I know I do and I don't see it as a problem except for the handicap. Tournament rounds will see me mark most if not all of my putts, usually make a more conservative choice on the tee and generally play a tighter game than in a casual round. Casual rounds will see me more talkative and social, way more willing to try a low percentage shot and more likely a lot less worried about what I shot.

Casual rounds are for the most part played with a buddy or three and the stress factor for most shots is really low. Tournament rounds are a different kettle of fish to me. I enjoy both but I prepare and approach both in a totally different way, I would not think of playing a tournament round without a full warm up. Played a lot of casual rounds where the only warm up is on the first tee and the first putt is on the first green.

[Putridgasbag]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Ok.  So here is a situation I have seen at least a 100 times.  Your group waited on the group ahead earlier in the round but you are currently about a half a hole behind.  You hit your putt for 4 three to five feet past the hole.  In this situation, I have seen players do all of the following:

A.  Go through their normal routine for their comeback putt and record their actual score.

B.  Give themselves the putt for 5.

C.  Rush their comeback putt and record a 5 whether they make it or not.

D.  Rush their comeback putt and record their actual score.

Which of the above do you deem correct under the rules of golf and the handicap guidelines?

Well two are cheating and two are not and if you have to ask which you shouldn't be asking the question.

[bigwave916]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Ok.  So here is a situation I have seen at least a 100 times.  Your group waited on the group ahead earlier in the round but you are currently about a half a hole behind.  You hit your putt for 4 three to five feet past the hole.  In this situation, I have seen players do all of the following:

A.  Go through their normal routine for their comeback putt and record their actual score.

B.  Give themselves the putt for 5.

C.  Rush their comeback putt and record a 5 whether they make it or not.

D.  Rush their comeback putt and record their actual score.

Which of the above do you deem correct under the rules of golf and the handicap guidelines?

Do you sort your M&Ms; by color, then by count? Which color do you eat first, the color with the lowest number or the color with the highest count? Or do you have some other logic that determines how you finish your snack?

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by bigwave916

Do you sort your M&Ms; by color, then by count? Which color do you eat first, the color with the lowest number or the color with the highest count? Or do you have some other logic that determines how you finish your snack?

Yes, I am a logical and analytical person, but I don`t suffer from OCD.  I eat whichever ones come out of the pack first unless I am feeling lucky, then I go for the green ones.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Putridgasbag

Well two are cheating and two are not and if you have to ask which you shouldn't be asking the question.

That's kinda the point of his thread because the two that are "obviously cheating" are B and C.  However, the point of this thread (I think) is about how you handle scoring in casual rounds - not tournament rounds - for the sake of your handicap.  So the "obviously cheating" options are actually quite the opposite.  They are going to lean your HDCP towards the side of vanity and away from sandbagging.

For handicap purposes, the ONLY one that is cheating is D.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by bigwave916

Do you sort your M&Ms; by color, then by count? Which color do you eat first, the color with the lowest number or the color with the highest count? Or do you have some other logic that determines how you finish your snack?

Are you talking about a full bag or "fun size?"

Fun size M&M;'s (for me) I just "drink" the whole damn bag at once.

Full size ... I sort out all of the green ones and give them to my son.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

I'm sorry... But I still don't get the point of Sandbagging.  I mean winning some 'Low Net' tournament is lame.  Go low, or go home!

I hear ya!  I don't understand it in the least.  I see the same thing in bowling and I don't get it.  A lot of guys, once the game is won, like to "take it easy" for the last couple of frames.  That way they still win the game but they can keep their average lower and help win future.  Lame.

That is why I joined a scratch league.  No need to worry about shenanigans like that anymore.

[Putridgasbag]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

That's kinda the point of his thread because the two that are "obviously cheating" are B and C.  However, the point of this thread (I think) is about how you handle scoring in casual rounds - not tournament rounds - for the sake of your handicap.  So the "obviously cheating" options are actually quite the opposite.  They are going to lean your HDCP towards the side of vanity and away from sandbagging.

For handicap purposes, the ONLY one that is cheating is D.

Except for the part where he states under the rules of golf and handicap. So really rushing isn't against the rules and is a subjective thing thus as long as you pick the ball out of the hole and record the number you meet both criteria.

Again you can rush any shot and just because it is a 3 footer doesn't make it anything more than a bad choice on the golfers part.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Putridgasbag

Except for the part where he states under the rules of golf and handicap. So really rushing isn't against the rules and is a subjective thing thus as long as you pick the ball out of the hole and record the number you meet both criteria.

Again you can rush any shot and just because it is a 3 footer doesn't make it anything more than a bad choice on the golfers part.

Yes, I get that those actions are against the rules and that what you said is permitted ... in competition.  But, how many threads have you seen on here where somebody is bitching about coming in first place in a tournament because he had to deal with a bunch of jerks who came in last place with a 137 because they had suspicious vanity handicaps?

None.

Why?  Because nobody cares if you cheat yourself while you are playing casual rounds against nobody.

On the other hand, if you go rushing through your round and recording your high score you can tell yourself "Hey, I played by the rules of golf so my handicap is legit" all you want ... but you know damn well that if anything is cheating it's option B here, not A.

[bigwave916]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Why?  Because nobody cares if you cheat yourself while you are playing casual rounds against nobody.

On the other hand, if you go rushing through your round and recording your high score you can tell yourself "Hey, I played by the rules of golf so my handicap is legit" all you want ... but you know damn well that if anything is cheating it's option B here, not A.

Exactly....it really comes down to the "honor" component of golf. Do you cheat or not?  You know if you do, or don't.

I turn in all my scores, good or bad, concentrating and trying hard, versus don't care or just trying a few different things. The handicap system is going to wash it all out anyway because it's only taking your best scores and weighting tournament scores.

Two scenarios:

Casual round, and I hit my drive in a deep fairway bunker. I'm far enough back from the lip that I can get a 6 iron over the lip, but I mis-hit the shot and end up closer to the lip. To get a different club I've got to climb up out of the bunker (and I need a more lofted club), climb back down in etc. I say screw it, lay the face open and hit another bad shot because I was too lazy to go up and get another club. Third try with the 6 iron and I got out sideways into another bunker. Took an 8 on the hole. I still turn that round in for handicap.

Tournament, 18th hole, I hit the fairway on my first shot but pulled my second shot to a green that is built up near water with pilings and a plank capping the pilings. My ball hits the cap, bounces almost vertically and comes down 4 inches inside the cap. (Ball is between the capped wall and the green) I've got the wall keeping me from hitting any kind of a shot other than chopping almost straight down on the ball and hope it squirts onto the green and has enough roll to get down near the hole. One swing, hit the cap, second swing hit the cap, I decide to try turning the club upside down and chip the ball out to the side and hope it takes the slope back toward the pin. I got it out, but it didn't roll down at all leaving me a 40 footer for double bogie 6. I 3 putt from there for an 8.  I didn't really care because I knew I couldn't beat anyone in my foursome (same flight) and they were only paying 3 places.  I could have taken an unplayable, returned to the fairway and dropped 3, hitting 4 to the green and probably would have made no more than a 6.

Which one of these would you call "sandbagging"?

[Putridgasbag]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Yes, I get that those actions are against the rules and that what you said is permitted ... in competition.  But, how many threads have you seen on here where somebody is bitching about coming in first place in a tournament because he had to deal with a bunch of jerks who came in last place with a 137 because they had suspicious vanity handicaps?

None.

Why?  Because nobody cares if you cheat yourself while you are playing casual rounds against nobody.

On the other hand, if you go rushing through your round and recording your high score you can tell yourself "Hey, I played by the rules of golf so my handicap is legit" all you want ... but you know damn well that if anything is cheating it's option B here, not A.

I don't disagree and believe that it is the fault of the system for allowing casual rounds to count. Lots of free programs to track casual rounds, the so called official one should be used for tournaments. Better chance that rounds would be scrutinized and attested and a player called out for fudging the score.

[newtogolf]

As others stated, A and D are the only options if you want to apply your score for handicap.

A 5 foot putt isn't even close to a gimme, so anyone that takes it isn't a sandbagger they're a vanity capper.

A is the right answer if you're playing according to the rules of golf.

D is on the fringe because by rushing it you're not making your best effort to score the lowest possible, but might be appropriate if the course is backed up and you need to clear the green for the group behind you.

Originally Posted by MEfree

Ok.  So here is a situation I have seen at least a 100 times.  Your group waited on the group ahead earlier in the round but you are currently about a half a hole behind.  You hit your putt for 4 three to five feet past the hole.  In this situation, I have seen players do all of the following:

A.  Go through their normal routine for their comeback putt and record their actual score.

B.  Give themselves the putt for 5.

C.  Rush their comeback putt and record a 5 whether they make it or not.

D.  Rush their comeback putt and record their actual score.

Which of the above do you deem correct under the rules of golf and the handicap guidelines?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by bigwave916

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Why?  Because nobody cares if you cheat yourself while you are playing casual rounds against nobody.

On the other hand, if you go rushing through your round and recording your high score you can tell yourself "Hey, I played by the rules of golf so my handicap is legit" all you want ... but you know damn well that if anything is cheating it's option B here, not A.

Exactly....it really comes down to the "honor" component of golf. Do you cheat or not?  You know if you do, or don't.

I turn in all my scores, good or bad, concentrating and trying hard, versus don't care or just trying a few different things. The handicap system is going to wash it all out anyway because it's only taking your best scores and weighting tournament scores.

Two scenarios:

Casual round, and I hit my drive in a deep fairway bunker. I'm far enough back from the lip that I can get a 6 iron over the lip, but I mis-hit the shot and end up closer to the lip. To get a different club I've got to climb up out of the bunker (and I need a more lofted club), climb back down in etc. I say screw it, lay the face open and hit another bad shot because I was too lazy to go up and get another club. Third try with the 6 iron and I got out sideways into another bunker. Took an 8 on the hole. I still turn that round in for handicap.

Tournament, 18th hole, I hit the fairway on my first shot but pulled my second shot to a green that is built up near water with pilings and a plank capping the pilings. My ball hits the cap, bounces almost vertically and comes down 4 inches inside the cap. (Ball is between the capped wall and the green) I've got the wall keeping me from hitting any kind of a shot other than chopping almost straight down on the ball and hope it squirts onto the green and has enough roll to get down near the hole. One swing, hit the cap, second swing hit the cap, I decide to try turning the club upside down and chip the ball out to the side and hope it takes the slope back toward the pin. I got it out, but it didn't roll down at all leaving me a 40 footer for double bogie 6. I 3 putt from there for an 8.  I didn't really care because I knew I couldn't beat anyone in my foursome (same flight) and they were only paying 3 places.  I could have taken an unplayable, returned to the fairway and dropped 3, hitting 4 to the green and probably would have made no more than a 6.

Which one of these would you call "sandbagging"?

Neither.  Bad choices, bad decisions - maybe an indication for taking an anger management class. Maybe you need some practice with trouble shots.  No sandbagging because there is no intent to cheat your handicap.  You made poor decisions in the heat of battle, and such a situation in a casual round can feel just as meaningful at the time as it is in a competition round.  I take every round equally seriously, yet I also play every round to have fun.  Serious golf, having fun, and playing by the rules are not mutually exclusive goals.  Nor is trying to shoot the lowest reasonable score while still using a little common sense.

I never have to worry about whether I'm sandbagging because I do approach every round the same way.  Every round is an opportunity for fun.  Every shot is a new challenge.  Every decision is made depending on the situation and conditions existing at the time.  And I don't believe I've ever agonized over a decision just because the wrong choice might make one tenth of a point of difference in my handicap index.  I do what I feel is the proper thing at the time, whether that is to abandon a search early or to continue it up to the last second.  You can also look at it like this.  I take the full 5 minutes, don't find the ball, walk to my provisional ball (hopefully I'm at least smart enough to play one), hit it.  But now my group is 5 minutes out of position, so we have to rush the next few shots to catch up.  That just cost us a couple more strokes on our scores because we didn't have the luxury of playing in our usual routine.  Now the fact that we wasted the time on the full search is indirectly responsible for a higher score and an inflated handicap.  Am I now a sandbagger?  And since the group behind us had to wait on us, and now they have to rush to regain position just as we do, we have managed to have an negative effect on their scores too.

Or, and I ask MEFree, are just going to keep falling further and further out of position every time you have a ball search without making any attempt to regain your place?

I've made poor shot decisions, both in competition and in casual rounds, which have cost me 2 or 3 strokes on that hole.  Going for a green with a hazard very much in play is a biggie.  I don't do it as much these days as I once did, but now and then it's just irresistible.   I may not pull the shot off very often,  but what a feeling when I do.   Is that aggressive, go for it attitude sandbagging?  No, because my intent is to shoot the lowest score possible, even though I may know that the odds are better that I"m going miss and make a triple on the hole.  But that isn't what I'm thinking about when I plan the shot.  All I'm thinking about is "Okay, I'm 230 out and I've got 210 to carry the hazard.... I can do this, let's go."  Or I'm thinking "Okay, I'm 230 out and I've got 210 to carry the hazard.... I'm hitting my short irons well today, so I'm going to lay up with a 9I and try to stiff a wedge for my 3rd."  Same hole, same distances, but different thought process on different days because of a difference in how I feel about my game that day.

[Pablo68]

I think if you ask those that inflate their handicap, they'd probably respond 'everyone does it'.

Kind of like when the Patriots got caught cheating in 2007, a lot of apologists would say 'If you ain't cheatin', you ain't trying'.

I played in a church tourney several years ago and we've got two eagle putts; one 40' and one 15'. One of the guys swats the 40' putt as another is marking the 15' one and it goes in. The guy that hit it says 'Alright; we got an eagle!'. Another guy agreed with the third guy remaining quiet. I stood my ground stating that no way we'd have tried the 40' instead of the 15' one. They finally relented but that was in a church tourney and fellow 'Christians'.

[bigwave916]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Neither.  Bad choices, bad decisions - maybe an indication for taking an anger management class.    Maybe you need some practice with trouble shots.  No sandbagging because there is no intent to cheat your handicap.  You made poor decisions in the heat of battle, and such a situation in a casual round can feel just as meaningful at the time as it is in a competition round.  I take every round equally seriously, yet I also play every round to have fun.  Serious golf, having fun, and playing by the rules are not mutually exclusive goals.  Nor is trying to shoot the lowest reasonable score while still using a little common sense.

I never have to worry about whether I'm sandbagging because I do approach every round the same way.  Every round is an opportunity for fun.  Every shot is a new challenge.  Every decision is made depending on the situation and conditions existing at the time.  And I don't believe I've ever agonized over a decision just because the wrong choice might make one tenth of a point of difference in my handicap index.  I do what I feel is the proper thing at the time, whether that is to abandon a search early or to continue it up to the last second.  You can also look at it like this.  I take the full 5 minutes, don't find the ball, walk to my provisional ball (hopefully I'm at least smart enough to play one), hit it.  But now my group is 5 minutes out of position, so we have to rush the next few shots to catch up.  That just cost us a couple more strokes on our scores because we didn't have the luxury of playing in our usual routine.  Now the fact that we wasted the time on the full search is indirectly responsible for a higher score and an inflated handicap.  Am I now a sandbagger?  And since the group behind us had to wait on us, and now they have to rush to regain position just as we do, we have managed to have an negative effect on their scores too.

Or, and I ask MEFree, are just going to keep falling further and further out of position every time you have a ball search without making any attempt to regain your place?

I've made poor shot decisions, both in competition and in casual rounds, which have cost me 2 or 3 strokes on that hole.  Going for a green with a hazard very much in play is a biggie.  I don't do it as much these days as I once did, but now and then it's just irresistible.   I may not pull the shot off very often,  but what a feeling when I do.   Is that aggressive, go for it attitude sandbagging?  No, because my intent is to shoot the lowest score possible, even though I may know that the odds are better that I"m going miss and make a triple on the hole.  But that isn't what I'm thinking about when I plan the shot.  All I'm thinking about is "Okay, I'm 230 out and I've got 210 to carry the hazard.... I can do this, let's go."  Or I'm thinking "Okay, I'm 230 out and I've got 210 to carry the hazard.... I'm hitting my short irons well today, so I'm going to lay up with a 9I and try to stiff a wedge for my 3rd."  Same hole, same distances, but different thought process on different days because of a difference in how I feel about my game that day.

Bad choices-bad decisions, yes, that's the way I see it. But taken in another light, Equitable Stroke Control feature of handicap will not let me take more than an 8 on the hole, at least as far as my index is concerned. Time to get a club in the first instance, and time to go back to the previous spot in the second convinced me to go ahead with the more risky shots rather than hold up the group playing the more conservative play.

As far as looking for a ball.....I base how long I look on my assessment of the chances of finding it. If the odds are against it, play on.

USGA index uses the 10 best of the last 20 and a few bad holes won't move the index, and won't matter at all if they are in the midst or rounds that are bad eniugh they won't even be used to factor handicap. The tournament scenario I described, I was having the worst round of my last 12 or so rounds and a couple of extra strokes wasn't going to mean anything.

In the Golf Channel AMTour they use a tie breaker that I really like on those occasions where they wouldn't normally have a play off.  The tie breaker is a match of scorecards for the last three holes, if they are still tied, they use the last six.  Lets say the iindex for a flight is 8.0 and the guy plays so well that he's going to come in well under the norm for that flight. He's 6 strokes ahead of everyone in his foursome, but he doesn't know what everyone else in the flight is doing. If he lays down the last six holes to protect his handicap he could cost himself the tournament win on the tie breaker.

I think it really comes down to intent. Intentionally hitting bad shots, or lying about scores, submitting bogus scores to raise handicap, missing putts on purpose, hooking one into the woods intentionally, or cutting one way right to inflate a round is sandbagging.

[Datsyuk]

Ok.  So here is a situation I have seen at least a 100 times.  Your group waited on the group ahead earlier in the round but you are currently about a half a hole behind.  You hit your putt for 4 three to five feet past the hole.  In this situation, I have seen players do all of the following: A.  Go through their normal routine for their comeback putt and record their actual score. B.  Give themselves the putt for 5. C.  Rush their comeback putt and record a 5 whether they make it or not. D.  Rush their comeback putt and record their actual score. Which of the above do you deem correct under the rules of golf and the handicap guidelines?

A, B, and D for handicap.