Are the Arms Truly Passive in the Swing or Are They Trained Well Enough That It Just Seems That Way?

[billchao]

Originally Posted by Fearlessgolfer

Passive to me, means that when body is the leader and the hand and arm follows, where as active arm swing, body reacts to hand/arm motion. Dog waggles the tail image worked well for me when I was a body swingers/turner. When my shot pattern became bigger fade/slice, I ended up seeing McLean which agreed that too much body can be a very bad thing and gave me "L-to-L" drill. From there ended up seeing Bender who is also CF arm teacher. Transition wasn't fun at all.

I get what you are saying here, and I think a lot of people define "passive" arms exactly the same way. Its why I put passive in quotes in my post earlier, as the arms are full of muscles and can never truly be passive, not like a rope or anything. They just feel that way. Maybe a better word for describing the feeling is secondary, as in, firing the hips is primary, and the arms are secondary in the swing?

Originally Posted by Rudyprimo

The feeling that I get is the lower body starts the downswing, the arms "feel" limp, the first 4-6 inches my arms drop from gravity and then the muscles take over more and more as you feel like you're pulling down on a rope.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought the drop of the arms was a result of anatomy as opposed to gravity? The hips and shoulders are connected in such a way that when you tilt the hips in one direction, your shoulders generally follow. Therefore, when you start your downswing with your hips and you press your weight forward, you shift your left hip up and your right hip down, which causes your right shoulder to tilt down and drop your arms. So yes, you're not using your arms actively to drop them, but it's not really gravity either.

[boil3rmak3r]

An update in my OP and hoping to get others experiences and/or teaching pros thoughts... A little background first. I worked hard last year with trying to use my big muscles to swing. It has given me some results, as I've seen my HC go down 2 strokes to a 7 (I was down to a 5 for a bit). My ball striking, however, was still inconsistent with a fat shot being the most common miss. For the past month+, I have been trying to generate a flat or supinated left (lead) wrist going into impact. The feel (which I know isn't always real) is to try to turn my left palm toward the sky as I reach impact. I knew from indoor hitting that I have increased my ss by an average of 8 mph with a 9 iron after working on this for a while. We had great weather here in Indiana this past Saturday, so we were able to play 18 holes. I learned 3 things from my round: 1) I was about 1/2 to 1 club longer than usual; 2) I put more back spin on my iron shots; and 3) I started many shots left with a hook spin to the ball (my normal flight was a straight draw). So now I've been working on weakening my grip a bit to get the ball flight I would like. Am I on a dangerous path in trying to build muscle memory to get my wrists to act this way through the impact zone? I would really like to lower my HC more and feel I hit a wall last year. The things I described above seem to make a noticeable difference and it excites me. I would hate, however, to engrain habits that could be detrimental in the long run.

[onephenom]

Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r

An update in my OP and hoping to get others experiences and/or teaching pros thoughts...

A little background first. I worked hard last year with trying to use my big muscles to swing. It has given me some results, as I've seen my HC go down 2 strokes to a 7 (I was down to a 5 for a bit). My ball striking, however, was still inconsistent with a fat shot being the most common miss.

For the past month+, I have been trying to generate a flat or supinated left (lead) wrist going into impact. The feel (which I know isn't always real) is to try to turn my left palm toward the sky as I reach impact. I knew from indoor hitting that I have increased my ss by an average of 8 mph with a 9 iron after working on this for a while.

We had great weather here in Indiana this past Saturday, so we were able to play 18 holes. I learned 3 things from my round: 1) I was about 1/2 to 1 club longer than usual; 2) I put more back spin on my iron shots; and 3) I started many shots left with a hook spin to the ball (my normal flight was a straight draw).

So now I've been working on weakening my grip a bit to get the ball flight I would like.

Am I on a dangerous path in trying to build muscle memory to get my wrists to act this way through the impact zone?

I would really like to lower my HC more and feel I hit a wall last year. The things I described above seem to make a noticeable difference and it excites me. I would hate, however, to engrain habits that could be detrimental in the long run.

If you're weakening the wrists, that means the clubface is more open, which causes the ball to start to the right. If you're hooking or drawing, that will help by starting right and coming back, if you line up the right way. So in that respect, it's definitely helping. However, hooking is very inconsistent so that problem should probably be addressed, hopefully to result in more of a slight draw again.

Why are you trying to get the left hand facing the sky? That probably causes the ball to start to the left, seems like that would close the face to me.

Do you go to the birck bays at the driving range? Or is there somewhere else around here that I could be hitting indoors? I hope so... the purdue bays are way too expensive for me

Edit:

P.S. wasn't the weather awesome? I almost forgot I lived in indiana...

[boil3rmak3r]

If you're weakening the wrists, that means the clubface is more open, which causes the ball to start to the right. If you're hooking or drawing, that will help by starting right and coming back, if you line up the right way. So in that respect, it's definitely helping. However, hooking is very inconsistent so that problem should probably be addressed, hopefully to result in more of a slight draw again.  Why are you trying to get the left hand facing the sky? That probably causes the ball to start to the left, seems like that would close the face to me.  Do you go to the birck bays at the driving range? Or is there somewhere else around here that I could be hitting indoors? I hope so... the purdue bays are way too expensive for me Edit: P.S. wasn't the weather awesome? I almost forgot I lived in indiana...

I've been trying to correct my wrist positions and lag at impact. I agree that the weaker grip promotes a more open club face and turning the left wrist had the opposite effect. The wrist thing, though, makes my impact position look better at impact. Face angle, however, is obviously off. I'm wondering if a grip change could fix that easily enough. I guess I'm just wondering if anyone on this sight has ever had success by making a concerted effort to have the wrists in a certain position at impact... I've never used the birk bays. What are the rates? I have a room in my home that I've set up as a hitting area. I also go to Zionsviile usually twice per month. There is an outdoor range with heated bays. I think it's $10 for a bucket of 120 balls.

[onephenom]

I've been trying to correct my wrist positions and lag at impact. I agree that the weaker grip promotes a more open club face and turning the left wrist had the opposite effect. The wrist thing, though, makes my impact position look better at impact. Face angle, however, is obviously off. I'm wondering if a grip change could fix that easily enough. I guess I'm just wondering if anyone on this sight has ever had success by making a concerted effort to have the wrists in a certain position at impact... I've never used the birk bays. What are the rates? I have a room in my home that I've set up as a hitting area. I also go to Zionsviile usually twice per month. There is an outdoor range with heated bays. I think it's $10 for a bucket of 120 balls.

10 dollars a bucket in heated bays?!?! Birck is 25 for a bucket of 80ish balls. What's this place in zionsville called? I think the way you cock your wrist has more to do with the face angle at impact. If you have a strong grip and cup the wrist when you cock it, then (I think) that leads to having a closed face. I use a strong single action grip and I don't cup, bow, or roll my wrist at all going back and that gets the clubface square

[cutshot878]

Downswing. With my driver I have better results when I "feel" like I'm ignoring the arms and hands and just rotating and clearing my left hip to initiate the downswing.  That doesn't work with the irons for me. With the irons, I  "feel" like I am keeping my hips static and trying not to let them move laterally and then I "feel" like I am "hitting" the ball with my right hand. This squares  the face nicely  and then it closes hard after impact (I have a neutral left hand grip and a strong right hand grip which helps me "feel" like I am squaring up the face and then closing it hard after impact)  I take great divots when I "feel" like I'm turning my right hand over . Nice compression. Slight draw. At the end of the day, I have come to accept the fact that I draw the ball. Maybe if the wind is blowing left to right I will attempt a fade but I have much less confidence with it and the divots are not very aesthetically satisfying.

I can also "pull the butt of the club down" like a rope and "swing" with the irons but my contact is less crisp and there is not much of a divot. I can hit a fade easier with the "swinging" rope pulling "feel."     I have tried the "pinch the elbows together" method to initiate the downswing and it worked for about two days before I was hitting shanks.   I believe that "one plane" swingers can just "feel" like they're rotating the hips (with passive "freewheeling" arms) but "two planers" like Davis Love and David Toms (high hands) have to do some lowering before the rotation?  For years I was a "hitter" and I spent a long time (6 years) trying to  "swing" and have had some good ball striking days swinging but I believe I am going to return to "hitting" at least with the irons. . I know that this requires "timing" when you think about your right hand and it is not as efficient but it just "feels" more natural to me. With the driver, trying to think about rotating the right hand spells Duck Hook so for now I just "feel" like I am letting the hands freewheel. Neutral left and right hand grip. With the irons it is a neutral left and strong right unless I am trying to hit a fade.