2013 Masters Discussion Thread, Update with Tiger's Illegal Drop (Post #343)

[Zeph]

" He could have dropped the ball, keeping the point at which it last crossed the margin of the water between the hole and the spot on which the ball would be dropped." Any reason why he could not have choosen this option ?

The ball bounced off the flagstick and to the left, as can be seen on the picture below. It crossed the margin of the hazard the last time on the return, which would put the line between that point and the hole way to the left, into some bushes. It seems Tiger thought he was using that option, but forgot where the ball crossed the hazard. There is no doubt it's deliberate. He was standing there and moved 2 yards back, as he said in the interview. It's one thing to forget where you hit it from and make a guesstimation, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. That first shot could be one of the worst breaks in his career. He'd had a shot at birdie, ended up with bogey and might be DQ'd because of it. [quote name="Beachcomber" url="/t/65568/2013-masters-discussion-thread-update-with-possible-illegal-drop-from-tiger-post-343/450#post_831378"] If you drop and your ball ends up in your original divot - then the ball would have moved closer to the hole.  As you hit the ball first, ground second - divot follows.  So under the rules of golf, you should be able to re-drop as the ball moved closer to the hole. [/quote] Yeah, I realized that. I seem to remember Rickie dropping into a divot hole earlier this year, after he hit two balls in the water, but that may have been someone else's hole.

[Rick Martin]

Originally Posted by Stretch

It will be a great pity if Tiger is DQed. But, if he chose not to seek a ruling and then did get it wrong, I don't see how there's another outcome? He's already said straight out that he deliberately dropped away from his previous position.

Just imagine if the Chinese kid had missed the cut, too. Not a great day for the Masters ...

If they can disqualify poor old Roberto "I am a stupid" Di ViCenzo, they can DQ the Tiger.  If Tiger is disqualified, the eventual winner will always have the asterisk label "he won the year Tiger was DQ'd".

Cloud will hang over this one, for sure.  Nice playing by Jason Day - nice guy, good post round interview on GC.  I always prefer a proven winner and not a one-hit wonder win the Jacket. Not sure where Day fits in that.......probably the later, but would like to see an Aussie finally win it someday.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by crayputter

" He could have dropped the ball, keeping the point at which it last crossed the margin of the water between the hole and the spot on which the ball would be dropped."

Any reason why he could not have choosen this option ?

Ray

No that was definitely one option he had. But the line from the flag, through the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard (as it rolled off the green) was at least 20 yards to the left of where he dropped his ball.

As far as I can tell his only hope is that he can convince the officials that he honestly though the ball bounced straight back at him off the flagstick (it went at least 30 degrees to the side as you can see from the video above). He won't be penalised for an honest mistake, but given all the assistance available to him out there and the general principal that doubt is resolved against the individual to protect the field I think the most likely resolution is that he will be DQed.

[Zeph]

Tiger should do like Phil and take out the flagstick. :-D

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Great diagram Zeph. It's interesting if the whole hazard is not lateral given that layout. It looks like there would be quite a few positions from which you wouldn't have a drop going back from the flag.

And I'd agree that red line is pretty accurate given the video. No way he can claim he thought he was on the right line given he was only 80 yards away.

[Alanlinks]

Originally Posted by Rick Martin

If they can disqualify poor old Roberto "I am a stupid" Di ViCenzo, they can DQ the Tiger.  If Tiger is disqualified, the eventual winner will always have the asterisk label "he won the year Tiger was DQ'd".

Cloud will hang over this one, for sure.  Nice playing by Jason Day - nice guy, good post round interview on GC.  I always prefer a proven winner and not a one-hit wonder win the Jacket. Not sure where Day fits in that.......probably the later, but would like to see an Aussie finally win it someday.

If he goes on to win the masters it may be known as "the major he should have been disqualified"

[crayputter]

Originally Posted by Mordan

No that was definitely one option he had. But the line from the flag, through the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard (as it rolled off the green) was at least 20 yards to the left of where he dropped his ball.

As far as I can tell his only hope is that he can convince the officials that he honestly though the ball bounced straight back at him off the flagstick (it went at least 30 degrees to the side as you can see from the video above). He won't be penalised for an honest mistake, but given all the assistance available to him out there and the general principal that doubt is resolved against the individual to protect the field I think the most likely resolution is that he will be DQed.

Ok, fair enough...

But what if in the morning tomorrow, Tiger says 'I couldn't see the ball and thought it came straight back at me into the drink' ?

In all honesty, the video does show Tiger straining to see his first shot as soon as he hit it.

Ray

[Zeph]

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by crayputter

Ok, fair enough...

But what if in the morning tomorrow, Tiger says 'I couldn't see the ball and thought it came straight back at me into the drink' ?

In all honesty, the video does show Tiger straining to see his first shot as soon as he hit it.

Ray

He has fellow competitors, caddies, rules officials and spectators, even TV to ask. While there is a decision that says that an honest mistake should not be penalised, if Tiger could not see but had all those resources around him to ask is it really honest to just guess rather than use those resources that would allow him to accurately determine the right line to drop on.

The only way I could see him get away with it is if his fellow competitors come forward and say that they told him that they thought it came straight back at him. He'd need at least one third party to have told him where it went (wrongly) if he couldn't see.

[Zeph]

Ok, fair enough... But what if in the morning tomorrow, Tiger says 'I couldn't see the ball and thought it came straight back at me into the drink' ? In all honesty, the video does show Tiger straining to see his first shot as soon as he hit it.

That might be a way for them to allow it. It's strange Joe didn't pick up on it either. You can't really miss the ball bouncing off 30 degrees to the left.

[Rick Martin]

Originally Posted by crayputter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordan

No that was definitely one option he had. But the line from the flag, through the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard (as it rolled off the green) was at least 20 yards to the left of where he dropped his ball.

As far as I can tell his only hope is that he can convince the officials that he honestly though the ball bounced straight back at him off the flagstick (it went at least 30 degrees to the side as you can see from the video above). He won't be penalised for an honest mistake, but given all the assistance available to him out there and the general principal that doubt is resolved against the individual to protect the field I think the most likely resolution is that he will be DQed.

Ok, fair enough...

But what if in the morning tomorrow, Tiger says 'I couldn't see the ball and thought it came straight back at me into the drink' ?

In all honesty, the video does show Tiger straining to see his first shot as soon as he hit it.

Ray

He did say in one post round interview that the sun was directly in his eyes on that shot.

[crayputter]

Originally Posted by Zeph

That might be a way for them to allow it. It's strange Joe didn't pick up on it either. You can't really miss the ball bouncing off 30 degrees to the left.

Only Joe ?? What about Donald, Pearcy and their caddies ??

If I were playing with someone and I knew there was a rules infingement, I'd be the first to approach him !

This whole episode is strange....well, a few hours away now.....all will be sorted then, I suppose :)

Ray

[Zeph]

Only Joe ?? What about Donald, Pearcy and their caddies ?? If I were playing with someone and I knew there was a rules infingement, I'd be the first to approach him !

Yeah. They might not have picked up on him moving a few yards back though.

[Rick Martin]

GC Morning Drive' opening: Guan and Jason Day. You'd think they'd start w/ this controversy if it was a real potential. No mention of it.

We'll see.

[Zeph]

They are maybe afraid of spilling beans, or discussing it before it's decided.

[crayputter]

GC Morning Drive' opening: Guan and Jason Day. You'd think they'd start w/ this controversy if it was a real potential. No mention of it. We'll see.

I'm guessing in about an hour and half, the good people at Augusta would address this for sure... Just curious though, if Augusta stay quiet somehow, what happens ? TW keeps his 145pm tee time ? Ray

[crayputter]

They are maybe afraid of spilling beans, or discussing it before it's decided.

Quite possibly....or maybe GC is 'holding its horses' before jumping on their biggest star :) Ray

[Cracker24]

Originally Posted by crayputter

I'm guessing in about an hour and half, the good people at Augusta would address this for sure...

Just curious though, if Augusta stay quiet somehow, what happens ? TW keeps his 145pm tee time ?

Ray

Yeah, the decision is entirely at the discretion of the Augusta National officials.