Sand trap question

[luu5]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Walking is different because its an action required to hit the shot. Touching the sand with your hand isn't. I agree picking up a rack is needed as well. But to do it with the club, that is not required. I understand the need not to want to bend over, but i was always told never to ground the club in a hazard.

Why would this be a penalty if laying rest of your clubs in hazard is not? Most likely you can leave clubs outside, but the rules permit putting clubs in hazard.

[saevel25]

1) , i never put extra clubs in the hazard and i never seen anyone else do it either. I've always witness people put them outside the hazard.

2) the reason i believe all these actions would lead to a penalty is because if your playing a match, how does your opponent know the difference between a person picking up a rack out of a sandtrap and testing the conditions of the sandtrap?

I just feel like its better to not push the limit on this rule. For one if you have an opponent who's an ass, he could justifiably call you on this, and you would have a hard time proving you didn't garner information about the sand trap from your actions.

[luu5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

1) , i never put extra clubs in the hazard and i never seen anyone else do it either. I've always witness people put them outside the hazard.

2) the reason i believe all these actions would lead to a penalty is because if your playing a match, how does your opponent know the difference between a person picking up a rack out of a sandtrap and testing the conditions of the sandtrap?

I just feel like its better to not push the limit on this rule. For one if you have an opponent who's an ass, he could justifiably call you on this, and you would have a hard time proving you didn't garner information about the sand trap from your actions.

Why would putting clubs into hazard lead into a penalty as it is allowed by the rules? If opponent is an ass there is not much you can do about it. If he says ball moved, how would you prove it did not, and so on.

Quote:

Exceptions:

1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction , in measuring or in marking the position of, retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard .

You garner information about the condition of hazard when digging your feet in the sand, which you are allowed to do, digging that is. Unless it is excessive. Where do you put a line in there?

Decision 13-4/0.5:

Quote:

What is meant by “test the condition of the hazard” in Rule 13-4a?

The term covers all actions by which the player could gain more information about the hazard than could be gained from taking his stance for the stroke to be made, bearing in mind that a certain amount of digging in with the feet in the sand or soil is permitted when taking the stance for a stroke.

Examples of actions that would not constitute testing the condition of the hazard include the following:

• digging in with the feet for a stance, including for a practice swing, anywhere in the hazard or in a similar hazard;
• placing an object, such as clubs or a rake, in the hazard;
• leaning on an object (other than a club) such as a rake while it is touching the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard;
• touching the hazard with an object (other than a club) such as a towel (touching with a club would be a breach of Rule 13-4b); or
• marking the position of the ball with a tee or otherwise when proceeding under a Rule.

Examples of actions that would constitute testing the condition of the hazard in breach of Rule 13-4a include the following:

• digging in with the feet in excess of what would be done for a stance for a stroke or a practice swing;
• filling in footprints from a previous stance (e.g. when changing stance to make a different type of stroke);
• intentionally sticking an object, such as a rake, into sand or soil in the hazard or water in a water hazard (but see Rule 12-1);
• smoothing a bunker with a rake, a club or otherwise (but see Exception 2 to Rule 13-4);
• kicking the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard; or
• touching the sand with a club when making a practice swing in the hazard or in a similar hazard (but see Exception 3 to Rule 13-4).

[iceman777]

You can put your bag and the rake in the sand  , just don't walk away without raking .

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

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Originally Posted by sacm3bill

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Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

Actually it was the caddie who committed the breach, but the point is the same.  Do only what you need to when your ball lies in a bunker.  Know the provisions in Rule 13-4, and the exceptions, then be careful anyway.

Yep I know - the "(or in her case your caddie) " probably gave this away.

I think the takeaway here is that the player is allowed to get a stance but the caddie is not, and in fact shouldn't be in the bunker in the first place.

There is no reason for him not to go in the bunker, but he has no business "digging in".

I would argue there is a reason for him not to go in, and you said it yourself: Do only what you need to, then be careful anyway.  So what reason is there for a caddie *to* go in? Sure, maybe to get a closer look at the lie, but how often is that really necessary (where you couldn't get just as good of a look from the bunkers edge), so why take a chance?

Just for a possible scenario, his player is checking the green, planning the shot, and the caddie enters the bunker to pick up the rake, or to get a coffee cup that the wind blew into the bunker.  He simply needs to know that he can't do anything BUT pick up that obstruction.

Originally Posted by saevel25

1) , i never put extra clubs in the hazard and i never seen anyone else do it either. I've always witness people put them outside the hazard.

2) the reason i believe all these actions would lead to a penalty is because if your playing a match, how does your opponent know the difference between a person picking up a rack out of a sandtrap and testing the conditions of the sandtrap?

I just feel like its better to not push the limit on this rule. For one if you have an opponent who's an ass, he could justifiably call you on this, and you would have a hard time proving you didn't garner information about the sand trap from your actions.

1)  It doesn't matter that you've never seen anyone do it, it's still allowed.

2)  It also doesn't matter if your match opponent is an ignorant ass.  If it's me, I get out my rule book and show him that he's wrong.  If that doesn't convince him, then I'm not going to worry about.  It's his problem, not mine.  He has to have evidence that I did something to test he condition.  He won't, so it's a moot point.  He can bitch all he wants - that doesn't make it so.