Is the inadvertent movement of a golf ball really that important to, and for the game of golf?

[k-troop]

k-troop, I'll make this simple for you.

I would support penalizing a player in all instances when a ball moves (dictionary). The player should then replace the ball in all instances. Completely takes judgment out of it - whether the ball "oscillates" or "moves" (RoG), there's a penalty, and the player has to pick it up and put it back down.

That would make the rule relatively simple, consistent, and clear.

I don't care if they'd effectively be trying to put the ball back in exactly the same spot. Nor do I care if they gain 2mm (just an example) of "movement" because they can't exactly replace the ball - that movement has effectively cost them a stroke already. "Replacing the ball" falls under the same "to the best of your ability" levels as we already use it - when we lift our ball from the putting green, etc. Only egregious errors are punished even with HD cameras (i.e. like that guy on the European Tour who routinely gained an inch or so by marking to the side, then putting his ball down in front).

I agree with you that would be the simplest solution.  I still think it's a fiction to simply go through the motions to "replace" it, but it is simpler.  That would be easy for all to follow.

It doesn't eliminate the sheer luck factor when a ball simply moves while a player is addressing it (say a gust of wind happens at the same moment).  In those cases you either unfairly penalize a player, or you have to use judgment to assess why the ball moved.  But that probably happens only very, very rarely--and lots of unlucky (and potentially unfair) things can happen on a golf course.

[turtleback]

We're not talking about it at a molecular level. We're talking about "replacing" it well enough to satisfy the Rules of Golf. So no physics necessary. We have a standard now that is simpler than the one you proposed.

And it's not self-proclaimed; I've got more than one degree that attests to my knowledge.

But the standard in the Rules of Golf depend on the level of visual discernment.  In a live situation it is entirely reasonable to say that Tiger's ball did not move.  And disregarding the fact that prior to about 2003 or so (when did HD cameras become that widespread n golf broadcasts?) no one would have been taking a video in that situation in the first place, even the video would have probably not been high enough resolution to determine that the ball moved.  As the technology improves, smaller and smaller movements, which never would have been considered movements at all under the rules of golf, will now be considered movement and incur penalties.  IF someone happens to take video of it and applies the highest available technology.  Which ends up kind of making a joke of the notion that we all play by the same rules, since the standard for movement now depends on the surrounding circumstances and the technology (or lack of technology) that is used too observe the situation.

[rkim291968]

A completely separate idea from "how/when should a ball be replaced" is "when should a player be penalized for the movement of his ball."

When a player moves loose impediments from around his ball, he is taking an affirmative and deliberate act to improve the ground conditions around his ball.  He is "improving his lie," though attempting to do so within the rules.  In this condition, if the ball moves, oscillates, twitches, or wiggles in any way then I'm arguing he should be penalized.

What about when a player is addressing the ball and it moves?  What then?

There was a case last year (I believe) when a player had a ball sitting on a slope.  The player moved to address the ball and the ball rolled a foot or so down the hill.  So, the player is assessed a stroke unless it's "virtually certain" that he did not cause the ball to move.  I believe that's the rule, but let's just say it's unclear why the ball moved.  Did the accumulating stress on the single blade of grass simply give way at the very moment the player stepped up?  Did some barely measurable seismic force caused by the player stepping up to the ball provide the final push over the wall of inertia?  If so, is that the player "causing the ball to move" under the rules?  And should Kevin Stadler be penalized more heavily than Zach Johnson because he's more likely to alter the seismic landscape?  (IIRC, we had a substantial debate over these issues at the time.)

I would propose that it doesn't matter.  If a ball moves while a player addresses the ball, and it's clear that the player wasn't attempting to affect the ball at all, then I'm proposing that he simply be required to replace the ball without penalty.  (That is, of course, unless the ball has moved so slightly that attempting to "replace" it would be an act of fiction.)

+1.

Eventually, I hope and believe the rule will change as k_troop states above.   Today, I played on a windy course.  On one hole, my ball moved by wind as I started to address the ball.  This repeated 2 more times.   No fault of my own, I may have incurred 3 penalty strokes if I went as far as grounding my putter each time.  If I incurred this penalty while I am playing in a local tournament, it'd ruined my day.   There are too many things in golf that frustrates us (bad ball striking day, your partner showing up late to tee time, etc.) without running into this rule.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by k-troop

A completely separate idea from "how/when should a ball be replaced" is "when should a player be penalized for the movement of his ball."

When a player moves loose impediments from around his ball, he is taking an affirmative and deliberate act to improve the ground conditions around his ball.  He is "improving his lie," though attempting to do so within the rules.  In this condition, if the ball moves, oscillates, twitches, or wiggles in any way then I'm arguing he should be penalized.

What about when a player is addressing the ball and it moves?  What then?

There was a case last year (I believe) when a player had a ball sitting on a slope.  The player moved to address the ball and the ball rolled a foot or so down the hill.  So, the player is assessed a stroke unless it's "virtually certain" that he did not cause the ball to move.  I believe that's the rule, but let's just say it's unclear why the ball moved.  Did the accumulating stress on the single blade of grass simply give way at the very moment the player stepped up?  Did some barely measurable seismic force caused by the player stepping up to the ball provide the final push over the wall of inertia?  If so, is that the player "causing the ball to move" under the rules?  And should Kevin Stadler be penalized more heavily than Zach Johnson because he's more likely to alter the seismic landscape?  (IIRC, we had a substantial debate over these issues at the time.)

I would propose that it doesn't matter.  If a ball moves while a player addresses the ball, and it's clear that the player wasn't attempting to affect the ball at all, then I'm proposing that he simply be required to replace the ball without penalty.  (That is, of course, unless the ball has moved so slightly that attempting to "replace" it would be an act of fiction.)

+1.

Eventually, I hope and believe the rule will change as k_troop states above.   Today, I played on a windy course.  On one hole, my ball moved by wind as I started to address the ball.  This repeated 2 more times.   No fault of my own, I may have incurred 3 penalty strokes if I went as far as grounding my putter each time.  If I incurred this penalty while I am playing in a local tournament, it'd ruined my day.   There are too many things in golf that frustrates us (bad ball striking day, your partner showing up late to tee time, etc.) without running into this rule.

That basic principle hasn't changed in more than 200 years - I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

[FlappyGilmore]

The only time I would move my ball do a different lie is if I drop an SBD and the cloud doesn't dissipate in a reasonable amount of time.

[Lihu]

The only time I would move my ball do a different lie is if I drop an SBD and the cloud doesn't dissipate in a reasonable amount of time.

Or you could drop it before you go to address your ball.

[Lihu]

So, I played with a man and his son this last weekend, and every time there was a divot, slightly muddy location, a little too much slope, too rough a rough or for whatever reason. He would apply a foot wedge. Seemed to happen every hole for either him or his son (who is in his 20s). He also mentioned that the other person we got "foured" up with was really "strict" with the rules.

This is a case of blatant "I want to play golf on my own terms" playing. He is out there to have fun, and I see that just as valid a way to enjoy a weekend afternoon.

I'm not so sure that changing the rules would satisfy the foot-wedge players anyway.

To top it off, he is actually a really good ball striker who just wants to play on his own terms.

[Dave2512]

Kind of easy to hit it well from perfect lies.

[rkim291968]

[QUOTE name="Lihu" url="/t/70773/is-the-inadvertent-movement-of-a-golf-ball-really-that-important-to-and-for-the-game-of-golf/36#post_913278"]   So, I played with a man and his son this last weekend, and every time there was a divot, slightly muddy location, a little too much slope, too rough a rough or for whatever reason. He would apply a foot wedge. Seemed to happen every hole for either him or his son (who is in his 20s). He also mentioned that the other person we got "foured" up with was really "strict" with the rules. This is a case of blatant "I want to play golf on my own terms" playing. He is out there to have fun, and I see that just as valid a way to enjoy a weekend afternoon. I'm not so sure that changing the rules would satisfy the foot-wedge players anyway. To top it off, he is actually a really good ball striker who just wants to play on his own terms. [/QUOTE] Nothing wrong with their approach to this game.   In fact, my wife has the same approach, keeps no scores, and she's enjoying the game more than I do.    I would have, too, if I am not so competitive in nature (most of us men are, it's a curse for our gender).   I want to establish an official handicap and compete.  And, following all the golf rules in scoring is paramount to that goal.   So, if a ball inadvertently moves as my putter is grounded, I will count it.   When "handicapped" tournament time comes, perhaps, adding up all those penalty strokes will help me win ...  ;-)