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Posted
Maybe i am missing something but I don't see a description of your miss with driver. What are you trying to correct? Distance? A slice? A hook? Body shift is just one part but your upper body may be the issue to. Especially if your left shoulder is dipping. This would prevent you from being able to generate any power and getting the club face square with the ball.

Sorry I was not very clear. When I first started, I would make consistent contact, but hit the ball around 100-150 yards with a massive slice (consistently). At this point, after working on flattening my swing more (I was very much upright with not enough body rotation), I can hit a few straight drives here and there, but I am usually not making good contact, not delivering much power, not generating enough distance, not launching the ball in a straight line, and still slicing here and there. The club contact often feels heavy and hard. I sky the ball and top the ball too…  J

Now, I can hit my 3-wood pretty decently (increasingly). There are only 3 differences I am aware of :

- Shaft length (43” vs. 45.75”)

- Loft (15 vs. 10.5)

- Club Head size

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Posted

i'm 5'8" and i cut my driver down 1 inch and that helped considerably. i think shorter guys need that.

I have been wondering for some time if my height (5'7") requires me to utilize different techniques or different equipment. However, I know there are shorter players who do just fine as well. I did try choking down on the driver, but that did not seem to help. I think I am going to focus on my swing mechanics first before I start cutting my driver down and what not..

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Posted

I have been wondering for some time if my height (5'7") requires me to utilize different techniques or different equipment. However, I know there are shorter players who do just fine as well. I did try choking down on the driver, but that did not seem to help. I think I am going to focus on my swing mechanics first before I start cutting my driver down and what not..

Equipment wouldn't be all that different, maybe flatter lie angles but technique wouldn't be any different, Ian Woosnam and Gene Sarazen had all 5 Keys ;-) You can give a good player a set of ladies clubs and he would still hit the ball first, hit it solid, equipment only does so much.

Mike McLoughlin

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Posted

Equipment wouldn't be all that different, maybe flatter lie angles but technique wouldn't be any different, Ian Woosnam and Gene Sarazen had all 5 Keys   You can give a good player a set of ladies clubs and he would still hit the ball first, hit it solid, equipment only does so much.


Thanks for mentioning these guys. I know Jbe Kruger on the European tour is also shorter (5'5"). So I guess its not my height. Most likely still a swing mechanics issue..

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Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

Equipment wouldn't be all that different, maybe flatter lie angles but technique wouldn't be any different, Ian Woosnam and Gene Sarazen had all 5 Keys   You can give a good player a set of ladies clubs and he would still hit the ball first, hit it solid, equipment only does so much.

Thanks for mentioning these guys. I know Jbe Kruger on the European tour is also shorter (5'5"). So I guess its not my height. Most likely still a swing mechanics issue..

The fact that your club feels "heavy and hard" leads me to think you are using your arms more than your body.

I would try to follow the threads pertaining to 5SK, as Mike (mvmac) mentioned, and PM Mike and/or Erik.

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Posted

[if gte mso 9]> Sorry I was not very clear. When I first started, I would make consistent contact, but hit the ball around 100-150 yards with a massive slice (consistently). At this point, after working on flattening my swing more (I was very much upright with not enough body rotation), I can hit a few straight drives here and there, but I am usually not making good contact, not delivering much power, not generating enough distance, not launching the ball in a straight line, and still slicing here and there. The club contact often feels heavy and hard. I sky the ball and top the ball too…  J

 

Now, I can hit my 3-wood pretty decently (increasingly). There are only 3 differences I am aware of :

-          Shaft length (43” vs. 45.75”)

-          Loft (15 vs. 10.5)

-          Club Head size

[if gte mso 9!> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE


Posted

The fact that your club feels "heavy and hard" leads me to think you are using your arms more than your body.

I would try to follow the threads pertaining to 5SK, as Mike (mvmac) mentioned, and PM Mike and/or Erik.


Very good chance of that. Sometimes my arms feel a bit sore after a range session and I might have a slight case of tendonitis in my left arm (pain in outer part of arm below elbow).  At this point I am wondering if indeed my weight shift is not sufficient. It seems that I am pivoting/shifting, but perhaps I am not actually moving my hips forward enough. What throws me off though is that I make fairly decent shots with the rest of my clubs (increasingly). Not the case with driver though. I just know (intellectually) that it cannot be that hard to hit that club. Otherwise, nobody would be able to hit it. I am definitely missing something. Next session, I am going to focus hard hard on the weight shift and in slow motion to try and get the sequence (as I understand it..see below). So step 3/4 will be the focus (and challenge)..

Sequence being:

1) address position

- slight bend in the knees, fairly vertical back

- ball slightly forward (aligned with inner left foot)

- ball tee: equator lined up with top of clubhaead

- club head center sweet spot aligns with ball when elevated off ground

2) Back swing: keeping head steady, rotate shoulders and club to parallel with ground and body and then up/around..finishing with a wrist hinge of club.

3) Initiate weight shift: move hips to the left and rotate towards target simultaneously.

4) Initiate downswing: focus on ball and swing through, around and over left shoulder..

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Posted
Cutting a club is not going to help you. Sounds like you are trying to generate power without tempo. You should post a video or have someone look at your swing path but it sounds like what some of the posts are describing, all hands and no body. No body means it can't get out of the way and the hands have to come out and around. Causes a outside to in swing path which usually results in a slice. And the club weight is because you're trying to swing with your hands (small muscles) rather than you core (big muscles).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

This video made a big difference in my swing approach with driver. Fixed my slice. If your coming in over the top and dropping your left shoulder you can't hit with a square face. I helped a friend with a ridiculous slice. He couldn't visualize the direction of the slot during the swing. I recommended putting a plastic bottle of water, almost empty, to the outside of the path to force the visual on the back swing. If he cranks it over the top the club would come in from the outside and hit the bottle. Forced him to change his timing between his upper and lower body. He had to get his body out of the way to make room between hips and the water bottle.

Hope that helps.

Regards

Thanks for your suggestions. It certainly seems like an arms vs body problem. I will work on getting a video together.

As far the Ben Hogan video, it seems that he is moving a lot of his left leg/knee inward/back during his initial back swing (0:15 in the video). Certainly more so than I do. Do you think that is a necessary part to get into proper position for lower body weight transfer pre/during downswing? To get proper leverage?

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Posted

Thanks for your suggestions. It certainly seems like an arms vs body problem. I will work on getting a video together.

As far the Ben Hogan video, it seems that he is moving a lot of his left leg/knee inward/back during his initial back swing (0:15 in the video). Certainly more so than I do. Do you think that is a necessary part to get into proper position for lower body weight transfer pre/during downswing? To get proper leverage?

No problem. I hope it helps. This is a great video. I reference it form time to time my myself.

I do believe that the left leg action is integral to helping the proper rotation and balance. I found it difficult to incorporate into my swing until it happened naturally. I think he used that motion to create a proper transition to his right side. Notice how he had the upward motion at the end and not a slide to the left. Reverse C. Getting his fundamentals into your swing would be a great start. Moe Norman are another great reference worth looking into regarding how to hit driver with aim. Regards.


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Posted

Very good chance of that. Sometimes my arms feel a bit sore after a range session and I might have a slight case of tendonitis in my left arm (pain in outer part of arm below elbow).  At this point I am wondering if indeed my weight shift is not sufficient. It seems that I am pivoting/shifting, but perhaps I am not actually moving my hips forward enough. What throws me off though is that I make fairly decent shots with the rest of my clubs (increasingly). Not the case with driver though. I just know (intellectually) that it cannot be that hard to hit that club. Otherwise, nobody would be able to hit it. I am definitely missing something. Next session, I am going to focus hard hard on the weight shift and in slow motion to try and get the sequence (as I understand it..see below). So step 3/4 will be the focus (and challenge)..

Sequence being:

1) address position

- slight bend in the knees, fairly vertical back

- ball slightly forward (aligned with inner left foot)

- ball tee: equator lined up with top of clubhaead

- club head center sweet spot aligns with ball when elevated off ground

2) Back swing: keeping head steady, rotate shoulders and club to parallel with ground and body and then up/around..finishing with a wrist hinge of club.

3) Initiate weight shift: move hips to the left and rotate towards target simultaneously.

4) Initiate downswing: focus on ball and swing through, around and over left shoulder..

For #1, check this thread out, beware of a "straight" back for good golf.

For #2, rotating the shoulders and hips parallel to the ground would cause a lot of problems.  We play golf on a tilted angle so we have to rotate on a tilted angle.  You can clearly see the golfer below turns his shoulders about 90* to his address inclination.

More on that

No problem. I hope it helps. This is a great video. I reference it form time to time my myself.

I do believe that the left leg action is integral to helping the proper rotation and balance. I found it difficult to incorporate into my swing until it happened naturally. I think he used that motion to create a proper transition to his right side. Notice how he had the upward motion at the end and not a slide to the left. Reverse C. Getting his fundamentals into your swing would be a great start. Moe Norman are another great reference worth looking into regarding how to hit driver with aim. Regards.

Be careful with Hogan's "fundamentals".  His book was about how he played golf.

Mike McLoughlin

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Posted

i agree. I wouldn't hang my hat on anyone's swing theory. But Hogan, like so many others had good points. That was what i was referring to. Try it and see if the results are positive. Otherwise move on and try something else.


Posted

This is interesting. I have not seen this being referred to as "upwards motion or reverse C" before. Sorta like scooping up? I am concerned about the timing/sequencing here and being able to train my body. It seems like I have to really not move arms until weight shift is way underway. In slow motion I get it, however incorporating this into a "real" swing is a whole different story.

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Posted

This is interesting. I have not seen this being referred to as "upwards motion or reverse C" before. Sorta like scooping up? I am concerned about the timing/sequencing here and being able to train my body. It seems like I have to really not move arms until weight shift is way underway. In slow motion I get it, however incorporating this into a "real" swing is a whole different story.

It's all about clearing the lower body. I would suggest trying it in practice at a very easy rate and then ramp it up if it seems to work.

Search the internet about the Reverse C finish. I believe many of the old time greats had a similar finish.Especially with long clubs like driver and 3 wood. I don't think its something that you intentionally do but rather a result of a proper swing sequence. Its kind of a result of the hips and upper body finishing in the right sequence and just letting the finish go thorough to the end that looks like a Reverse C. Nicholas and Watson both credited for finishing in that manner and never heard of them getting injured form it either. I tend to have a stiff back but when i finish in that manner it actually feels like a release rather than a snap at the finish. Also take a look at some to the long drive hitters. Some finish like that too. Not recommending you try to imitate their swings. Just see if you can draw info from their technique. I have.

Regards.


Posted
Depends on the person. For me it's holding the left knee flex and dropping the arms fast. My legs are always to active, so I loose a lot of keys if I don't stabilize myself. After years of being all over the place, feeling as little movement as possible works. Yes proper sequencing is Important. Proper turn rates and shoulder and hip incline helps a ton. Too shallow turn makes it difficult.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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Posted

You should post a video

Ok, I have posted 2 videos below. They are taken indoors with rubber balls and shooting at a net about 12-feet away, but I think these should suffice. When I say good or bad below, I am referring to how it felt coming off the club, the sound of the ball at impact with the bulls-eye (assuming it hits the bulls-eye), and the potential trajectory/distance perceived.. Fire away.

video #1: Driver, 2 shots. 1st shot is bad. 2nd shot is much better.

video #2: 3-Wood. Decent shot

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Posted

Please post your swing videos on this forum, once you do I'll move march's comments over there and I'll include my own.

http://thesandtrap.com/f/4180/member-swings

Mike McLoughlin

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Posted
Please post your swing videos on this forum, once you do I'll move march's comments over there and I'll include my own.

http://thesandtrap.com/f/4180/member-swings


Thanks mvmac. Done: http://thesandtrap.com/t/71705/my-swing-baw1

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    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
    • Day 6 - 2025-12-25 10 minutes of swing work on the mat and net. Focus on turn and weight shift.
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