Must You Succeed in Relief from Immovable Obstruction?

[rogolf]

Are those the things sometimes called 'french drains' ? At least very much sounds like them. Certainly obstructions and not water hazards.

No, French drains are trenches that are filled with rocks/stones (Google French drain for pics).

[Ignorant]

No, French drains are trenches that are filled with rocks/stones (Google French drain for pics).

Ok, thanks.

[KevCarter]

There's one unanswered question - did the spot where the ball ended up after your drop provide complete relief for your originally planned stroke with a 3 iron? If yes, then you're fine (Decision 24-2b/4) and would have been entitled to further relief for your 2h (Decision 20-2c/0.8).

If no, then you incurred a penalty of two strokes for a playing from a wrong place (Rules 20-7 and 24-2) after failing to take complete relief.

If you pick up your ball to take relief, you must ensure that you take complete relief, otherwise why did you pick up your ball?

I always appreciate your posts. I wasn't aware of that decision (20-2c/0.8) and very happy to have learned from you again today!

Kevin

[Rulesman]

No, French drains are trenches that are filled with rocks/stones (Google French drain for pics).

An interesting (perhaps) aside.

French Drains, especially where the stones are still exposed, are by definition Immovable Obstructions. The USGA however, say that they should be declared as GUR.

When asked why, they said "players understand the rules about GUR better than IOs".

I could have understood their response if they had said they should be marked and defined as GUR as the markings would make the recognition easier.

[Asheville]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogolf

No, French drains are trenches that are filled with rocks/stones (Google French drain for pics).

An interesting (perhaps) aside.

French Drains, especially where the stones are still exposed, are by definition Immovable Obstructions. The USGA however, say that they should be declared as GUR.

When asked why, they said "players understand the rules about GUR better than IOs".

I could have understood their response if they had said they should be marked and defined as GUR as the markings would make the recognition easier.

I'm sure that you've seen this, too, but sometimes the exposed trench filled with stones gets overgrown leaving a faint depression. The existence of the stones just barely below the surface often can only be detected with a probe.

[Rulesman]

I'm sure that you've seen this, too, but sometimes the exposed trench filled with stones gets overgrown leaving a faint depression. The existence of the stones just barely below the surface often can only be detected with a probe.

Yes, that's why, whenever I can, I get them marked as GUR. It pre-empts a lot of problems.

[Ignorant]

An interesting (perhaps) aside.

French Drains, especially where the stones are still exposed, are by definition Immovable Obstructions. The USGA however, say that they should be declared as GUR.

When asked why, they said "players understand the rules about GUR better than IOs".

I could have understood their response if they had said they should be marked and defined as GUR as the markings would make the recognition easier.

You being based in UK, how did you get in contact with USGA?

[Rulesman]

I had seen a statement by the USGA which said French Drains were GUR. I queried it with the R&A; and that resulted in my getting involved directly with the USGA. They conceded my point about the definition and came out with the words I quoted.

I haven't tried to contact them directly with other rules queries but have had indirect discussions. I have had Course Rating queries answered directly.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheville

I'm sure that you've seen this, too, but sometimes the exposed trench filled with stones gets overgrown leaving a faint depression. The existence of the stones just barely below the surface often can only be detected with a probe.

Yes, that's why, whenever I can, I get them marked as GUR. It pre-empts a lot of problems.

Particularly considering the fact that I've seen dips in a fairway which look exactly like an overgrown French drain, but are in reality the settled trenches where irrigation piping was laid.  Such depressions are not drains and as such are not subject to relief without penalty.

[Asheville]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheville

I'm sure that you've seen this, too, but sometimes the exposed trench filled with stones gets overgrown leaving a faint depression. The existence of the stones just barely below the surface often can only be detected with a probe.

Yes, that's why, whenever I can, I get them marked as GUR. It pre-empts a lot of problems.

Particularly considering the fact that I've seen dips in a fairway which look exactly like an overgrown French drain, but are in reality the settled trenches where irrigation piping was laid.  Such depressions are not drains and as such are not subject to relief without penalty.

I'll bet that you carry an old screwdriver or a Swiss Army knife in your referee bag just so that, if needed, you can probe to identify an overgrown french drain.

[rogolf]

I'll bet that you carry an old screwdriver or a Swiss Army knife in your referee bag just so that, if needed, you can probe to identify an overgrown french drain.

Well, I know that I carry a Swiss army knife with about a 2 inch blade, and have used it for that purpose many times - even offered it to players so that they can do their own probing. Further to the comment on sunken irrigation lines - we had an PGA professional take relief from a depression across a fairway that he assumed was a French drain. After considerable discussion with the superintendent, including looking at drawings of what was underneath the fairway, we concluded it was not a French drain. The end result was a two stroke penalty for a breach of Rule 18-2a.