Minimalist Golf Swing

[vangator]

Looks like an outsourced version of Jim Venetos. [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCmM2QK75vo[/VIDEO]

[Innercity Mini]

There are lots of biomechanists in golf-Only this lady has come up with a swing that looks like this.

If youve gotten better good for you, but youre still a 9.6, and the better players she has demonstrate her swing have an awfully traditional looking swing and dont do all the things she preaches.

Good luck.

Well, as my knee had deteriorated before being replaced I sank to a 21.6.  With my knee in shreds, I shot 3 rounds in the low 80's prior to surgery.  I expect to get lower as I rehab the knee.  She is teaching a traditional swing in a NON-TRADITIONAL SEQUENCE THAT IS EASIER ON THE HUMAN BODY!

It is obvious that you don't want to try to refute her observations about the swing, positions, sequence, etc and shooting at my HCP level reveals a lot about the confidence you have in your own methods. Likewise, my point about growing the game was a softball I offered you to be generous and kind in this discussion, and you passed on that, too.

I hope you prosper in every way and learn that kindness and intellectual discussions reveal strength and passion that help lots of things including golf.

[newtogolf]

If I missed it I'm sorry but what about a Chiropractor's understanding the bio-mechanics of a golf swing do you find odd or contradictory to anything you teach Phil? Think about Hogan's "Five Lessons!" He shows a right side in tilt at impact, a side-arm stone skipping throw ( or underhand clap), lower body leading the swing (right sided tilt), elbows closer together and left arm stuck to the chest on the backswing. Kiran's genius is that she explains the why of Hogan and the Howe of making his positions easier to hit consistently.

A chiropractor (even though not a real doctor ) may understand the bio-mechanics of a golf swing, but so might a personal trainer or a butcher.  Understanding bio-mechanics doesn't qualify one to be a golf instructor.

[Phil McGleno]

Where is the proof of any of this-That her swing is easier on the human body?-Is it easier because its a half swing with fewer moving parts that is incapable of driving the ball even 70% as far as a 'traditional' swing?-Is that what you like about it?[quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017168"]Well, as my knee had deteriorated before being replaced I sank to a 21.6.  With my knee in shreds, I shot 3 rounds in the low 80's prior to surgery.  I expect to get lower as I rehab the knee.  She is teaching a traditional swing in a NON-TRADITIONAL SEQUENCE THAT IS EASIER ON THE HUMAN BODY![/quote] What is to refute-She has not ever said anything here?-Her swing appears to be an arm swing that is bound to hit the ball lower than other swings and reduces clubhead speed. The hands never get very high the clubhead is always moving out to the right for a righty and the torso doesnt turn very much.--I have the utmost confidence in my 'methods' - I use them to break par regularly and to help students get better.-Id rather we grow the game by giving people good information not just this cult-like stuff that has a realy low ceiling. [quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017168"]It is obvious that you don't want to try to refute her observations about the swing, positions, sequence, etc and shooting at my HCP level reveals a lot about the confidence you have in your own methods. Likewise, my point about growing the game was a softball I offered you to be generous and kind in this discussion, and you passed on that, too.[/quote] Thanks-Doin quite well. [quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017168"] I hope you prosper in every way and learn that kindness and intellectual discussions reveal strength and passion that help lots of things including golf. [/quote] And the next time someone gives some actual information about this "minimalist golf swing" will be the first time!!!

[Innercity Mini]

Understanding bio-mechanics is not essential for for golf instructors-got it-look at all the BS golf systems out there! But in Kiran's case, she is an LPGA teaching pro and her credentials are extensive!   Check out the list in the first couple of seconds or more of the video. I'll bet she has worked with more students than anyone on this site! Please remember that Leonardo DaVinci was not an engineer and the Wright Bros were bike repairers. Also, my challenge to Phil was to try to invalidate her observations which he will not attempt with any success because he'd have to try to repudiate Ben Hogan's "Five Lessons" or and Moe Norman.

Anyway, my real point in all this is that golf is amazing and can be much more popular and more simply taught!

[Innercity Mini]

Where is the proof of any of this-That her swing is easier on the human body?-Is it easier because its a half swing with fewer moving parts that is incapable of driving the ball even 70% as far as a 'traditional' swing?-Is that what you like about it?

What is to refute-She has not ever said anything here?-Her swing appears to be an arm swing that is bound to hit the ball lower than other swings and reduces clubhead speed. The hands never get very high the clubhead is always moving out to the right for a righty and the torso doesnt turn very much.--I have the utmost confidence in my 'methods' - I use them to break par regularly and to help students get better.-Id rather we grow the game by giving people good information not just this cult-like stuff that has a realy low ceiling.

Thanks-Doin quite well.

And the next time someone gives some actual information about this "minimalist golf swing" will be the first time!!!

Hey Phil, for all the "capability" of the traditional golf swing you have the actuality of massive frustration and people quitting golf by the thousands.

Her swing is not a "half-swing" or "arm swing" since all swing factors are accounted for by her "pre-swing" routine. More weight behind the ball at impact, shallow inside sweep of the ball which actually promotes a higher ball flight, true loft and greater distances.

I have no doubts as to your golfing abilities but I am challenging your concept of "good information," with this public information. Part of the definition of "cult" requires a hidden aspect and this is not hidden in any sense. I think the "traditional" golf swing is simple BS that is actually a bigger obstacle for golfers than a help.

What I like about this method is the minimal wear and tear on my frame and the consistent ability it gives me to compress the ball. The compression is giving me a consistent 250 yards + up from 230 yards. Slower club head speed may stop me from hitting a 280/290 yard drive that's true, but lots of people can play very competitive golf from the middle of a fairway 250 yards from the tee.

Maybe her presentation is deceptively simple? Cheers and thanks for the response.

[Phil McGleno]

Time to break out the big boy posting. ------------------------------------------- That isnt what he said. [quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017223"]Understanding bio-mechanics is not essential for for golf instructors-got it[/quote] Such as? [quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017223"]look at all the BS golf systems out there![/quote] My list of names is five digits long. [quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017223"]I'll bet she has worked with more students than anyone on this site![/quote] So what? [quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017223"]Please remember that Leonardo DaVinci was not an engineer and the Wright Bros were bike repairers.[/quote] That goofy swing is not like Moe NOrman or Hogan's. I spent a few months with Moe-and as much time over many years with Hogan.-Cant watch the video now but dont know that Im gonna take time out of my day to refute anything someone else has to say.-Better ways to spend my time.--Not because I cant-just dont want to. [quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017223"]Also, my challenge to Phil was to try to invalidate her observations which he will not attempt with any success because he'd have to try to repudiate Ben Hogan's "Five Lessons" or and Moe Norman.:whistle: [/quote] Glad you and your not-breaking-80-regularly golf swing seem to believe so whole-heartedly.-More power to ya. Im gonna stick with what works. [quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017223"]Anyway, my real point in all this is that golf is amazing and can be much more popular and more simply taught! :banana: [/quote] Straw man. [quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017233"] Hey Phil, for all the "capability" of the traditional golf swing you have the actuality of massive frustration and people quitting golf by the thousands.[/quote] 45° shoulder turn, pros dont have their weight Behind the Ball at impact-'True Loft'? Clubs designed to have the handle forward slightly.-Where is the PROOF of any of this?-Id even settle for the thinking or logic behind it. You dont move your lower body in the backswing and you turn your shoulders 45° but its not a half-arm-swing? [quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017233"]Her swing is not a "half-swing" or "arm swing" since all swing factors are accounted for by her "pre-swing" routine. More weight behind the ball at impact, shallow inside sweep of the ball which actually promotes a higher ball flight, true loft and greater distances.[/quote] Which minute were you born?-One of you born every minute, just wondering which minute you were born?-This paragraph doesnt even say anything. Youre challenging my concept by doing what-saying that youre challenging my concept but not actually challenging it with anything? [quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017233"]I have no doubts as to your golfing abilities but I am challenging your concept of "good information," with this public information. Part of the definition of "cult" requires a hidden aspect and this is not hidden in any sense. I think the "traditional" golf swing is simple BS that is actually a bigger obstacle for golfers than a help.[/quote] Id claim minimal wear and tear for teaching a half swing too.-Look, good for you. You found aw ay to enjoy the game with a beat up body.-MOst golfers can swing the 'traditional' way though and dont need some half-swing stuff to hit the ball. [quote name="Innercity Mini" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017233"]What I like about this method is the minimal wear and tear on my frame and the consistent ability it gives me to compress the ball. The compression is giving me a consistent 250 yards + up from 230 yards. Slower club head speed may stop me from hitting a 280/290 yard drive that's true, but lots of people can play very competitive golf from the middle of a fairway 250 yards from the tee. [/quote] Time for you to put up a My Swing thread.

[newtogolf]

Hey Phil, for all the "capability" of the traditional golf swing you have the actuality of massive frustration and people quitting golf by the thousands.

Her swing is not a "half-swing" or "arm swing" since all swing factors are accounted for by her "pre-swing" routine. More weight behind the ball at impact, shallow inside sweep of the ball which actually promotes a higher ball flight, true loft and greater distances.

I have no doubts as to your golfing abilities but I am challenging your concept of "good information," with this public information. Part of the definition of "cult" requires a hidden aspect and this is not hidden in any sense. I think the "traditional" golf swing is simple BS that is actually a bigger obstacle for golfers than a help.

What I like about this method is the minimal wear and tear on my frame and the consistent ability it gives me to compress the ball. The compression is giving me a consistent 250 yards + up from 230 yards. Slower club head speed may stop me from hitting a 280/290 yard drive that's true, but lots of people can play very competitive golf from the middle of a fairway 250 yards from the tee.

Maybe her presentation is deceptively simple?  Cheers and thanks for the response.

Wasn't this one of the supposed benefits of S&T; as well?

[Phil McGleno]

Dont think so.-Was some argument about whether it was good or bad for your back for awhile-With one guy saying it was the best method (of golf swings, which are not at all easy on the body) for you but that was it. [quote name="newtogolf" url="/t/72863/minimalist-golf-swing/18#post_1017295"]Wasn't this one of the supposed benefits of S&T; as well? [/quote]

[Phil McGleno]

Notes on the video-I must be bored. Raise the arm and club shaft until they are shoulder high-She says. She has not turned her shoulders. The clubhead is barely above horizontal.-That is the entire backswing.-I was wrong. This is not a half swing. It is less. Downswing-Slap past the ball keeping right heel grounded.-THis is an arm swing.-The word 'slap' implies arms/hands only. The wrists never bend.-Yeah gonna get a lot of power like that. I cant post pictures from the youtube video but the end of her backswing is a joke, man come on. Body weight centered at impact-No good player is like this.-None Ive ever seen. Gave up half-way through. Was wasting my time. oops. Should have multiquoted or edited. If Mods can merge thank you.

[iacas]

@Innercity Mini I have a question for you given the swing you posted in the other thread about the guy who wants to quit.

Kiran clearly says that the traditional swing has a "reverse weight shift" in the backswing due to the lead leg flexing and the trail leg extending.

I know this to be false nearly 100% of the time, whether you're talking about force, pressure, OR "weight." I've done a LOT of work with pressure plates and force systems, and guys with PhDs in biomechanics disagree with her understanding of "reverse weight shift."

I'm curious as to your thoughts on this.

BTW, I've talked with Kiran several times on The Facebook, and have seen her discussions with others. I can't say I've learned anything from her, or seen anything explained in a new or interesting way…

[Innercity Mini]

Notes on the video-I must be bored.

Raise the arm and club shaft until they are shoulder high-She says. She has not turned her shoulders. The clubhead is barely above horizontal.-That is the entire backswing.-I was wrong. This is not a half swing. It is less.

Downswing-Slap past the ball keeping right heel grounded.-THis is an arm swing.-The word 'slap' implies arms/hands only.

The wrists never bend.-Yeah gonna get a lot of power like that. I cant post pictures from the youtube video but the end of her backswing is a joke, man come on.

Body weight centered at impact-No good player is like this.-None Ive ever seen.

Gave up half-way through. Was wasting my time.

oops. Should have multiquoted or edited. If Mods can merge thank you.

The shoulder turn is part of the set-up so she did turn her shoulders-and anyone, Phil, who gives this pre-set swing a try will see the benefits. I'm amazed at how much animosity is directed at this new idea.

Just out of curiosity, how man people recovering from 3 herniated discs, torn shoulder muscles and a shredded right knee can shoot in the low 80's on multiple days? How many people could Increase their driving distance by greater than 10% in that physical condition and shave 10 strokes or so from their usual score with those injuries having adopted this Minimal Golf Swing System? Either I'm Superman, lying, or really onto something you cannot comprehend. Simple intellectual honesty might admit to curiosity-not repeated protests by guy who obviously cannot see the similarities in MGSS and Hogan's Five Lessons.

[iacas]

The shoulder turn is part of the set-up so she did turn her shoulders-and anyone, Phil, who gives this pre-set swing a try will see the benefits. I'm amazed at how much animosity is directed at this new idea.

Sorry, perhaps I'm being dense (though I suspect not as I know a thing or two about this subject…), but do you not see the very minimal torso turn she's making? She pre-sets her shoulders, yes, but turns them very, very little.

And seriously, anyone who gives this a try will see the benefits? C'mon, you're selling this a bit too strong, aren't you? Tiger Woods? Me? A +2? A 2?

Just out of curiosity, how man people recovering from 3 herniated discs, torn shoulder muscles and a shredded right knee can shoot in the low 80's on multiple days?

That's not really the topic.

I'm with @Phil McGleno - good for you for finding something that works. But let's not pretend this makes sense for anyone. Also, I agree: let's see your swing in a My Swing thread.

Either I'm Superman, lying, or really onto something you cannot comprehend.

I'm gonna rule out the latter, and point out that it's comments like that which invite the "cult" type responses.

Simple intellectual honesty might admit to curiosity-not repeated protests by guy who obviously cannot see the similarities in MGSS and Hogan's Five Lessons.

Every kooky golf swing ever invented uses Hogan and/or Moe Norman as their "proof" at some point. Minimalist apparently uses both. And I realize I just called this "a kooky golf swing," but I'm just being intellectually honest… and that's my take on it. See the above re: her "misunderstanding" of the "reverse weight shift" she apparently sees in the golf swing (with what tools I don't know…).

P.S. Again, I'm glad you found something that works for you. Good for you.

[Innercity Mini]

@Innercity Mini I have a question for you given the swing you posted in the other thread about the guy who wants to quit.

Kiran clearly says that the traditional swing has a "reverse weight shift" in the backswing due to the lead leg flexing and the trail leg extending.

I know this to be false nearly 100% of the time, whether you're talking about force, pressure, OR "weight." I've done a LOT of work with pressure plates and force systems, and guys with PhDs in biomechanics disagree with her understanding of "reverse weight shift."

I'm curious as to your thoughts on this.

BTW, I've talked with Kiran several times on The Facebook, and have seen her discussions with others. I can't say I've learned anything from her, or seen anything explained in a new or interesting way…

I think Kiran points out that "reverse weight shift" happens quite often- I have not gotten enough detail as to why she says that happens-I know that when I set-up in her pre-turn and tilt it is very easy to direct my weight through the ball effectively. Since I have enjoyed so much success using her system given my physical problems, I believe anyone would enjoy trying her system. I find the animosity toward her by other golf professionals silly.

As a classroom teacher and First Tee volunteer I am always interested in a new way to deliver information to students. If it is effective, great, if not, we try something else and move on.

[iacas]

I think Kiran points out that "reverse weight shift" happens quite often.

I disagree.

Both that it happens "quite often" and that it is what happens in the "traditional swing." I've got actual measured data from thousands of golfers - over one hundred of whom are PGA Tour level players. Her understanding in this seems to be off - whether she's talking about weight, pressure, or force.

I know that when I set-up in her pre-turn and tilt it is very easy to direct my weight through the ball effectively.

Yet she says to keep your weight behind the ball.

I find the animosity toward her by other golf professionals silly.

What animosity? I've asked some questions. I've seen her (attempt to) answer questions on The Facebook. And I've asked you questions here.

As a classroom teacher and First Tee volunteer I am always interested in a new way to deliver information to students. If it is effective, great, if not, we try something else and move on.

This does not seem terribly effective to me, and worse than that, a good bit of it seems downright wrong or misguided.

I'm heading to bed. I'll re-iterate that again I'm glad that you've found something you like, and that you enjoy golf and can play despite your injuries, but this is where I bow out. I'll re-join the thread if you can provide satisfactory answers to a few of the questions asked above, but as Kiran has been unable to do so in the discussions I've seen, I'll not get my hopes up.

[Innercity Mini]

Sorry, perhaps I'm being dense (though I suspect not as I know a thing or two about this subject…), but do you not see the very minimal torso turn she's making? She pre-sets her shoulders, yes, but turns them very, very little.

And seriously, anyone who gives this a try will see the benefits? C'mon, you're selling this a bit too strong, aren't you? Tiger Woods? Me? A +2? A 2?

That's not really the topic.

I'm with @Phil McGleno - good for you for finding something that works. But let's not pretend this makes sense for anyone. Also, I agree: let's see your swing in a My Swing thread.

I'm gonna rule out the latter, and point out that it's comments like that which invite the "cult" type responses.

Every kooky golf swing ever invented uses Hogan and/or Moe Norman as their "proof" at some point. Minimalist apparently uses both. And I realize I just called this "a kooky golf swing," but I'm just being intellectually honest… and that's my take on it. See the above re: her "misunderstanding" of the "reverse weight shift" she apparently sees in the golf swing (with what tools I don't know…).

P.S. Again, I'm glad you found something that works for you. Good for you.

As soon as the surgeon gives me the ok to swing in earnest, I'll post a video or two-the surgery was June 27th. I don't understand the harm in inviting people to spend an hour at the range in her pre-sets and giving it a try-it has helped me greatly so I am enthusiastic about it. I saw the disparaging remarks in the thread so I thought I'd share my success with Kiran's system.

[Innercity Mini]

Sorry, perhaps I'm being dense (though I suspect not as I know a thing or two about this subject…), but do you not see the very minimal torso turn she's making? She pre-sets her shoulders, yes, but turns them very, very little.

And seriously, anyone who gives this a try will see the benefits? C'mon, you're selling this a bit too strong, aren't you? Tiger Woods? Me? A +2? A 2?

That's not really the topic.

I'm with @Phil McGleno - good for you for finding something that works. But let's not pretend this makes sense for anyone. Also, I agree: let's see your swing in a My Swing thread.

I'm gonna rule out the latter, and point out that it's comments like that which invite the "cult" type responses.

Every kooky golf swing ever invented uses Hogan and/or Moe Norman as their "proof" at some point. Minimalist apparently uses both. And I realize I just called this "a kooky golf swing," but I'm just being intellectually honest… and that's my take on it. See the above re: her "misunderstanding" of the "reverse weight shift" she apparently sees in the golf swing (with what tools I don't know…).

P.S. Again, I'm glad you found something that works for you. Good for you.

I disagree.

Both that it happens "quite often" and that it is what happens in the "traditional swing." I've got actual measured data from thousands of golfers - over one hundred of whom are PGA Tour level players. Her understanding in this seems to be off - whether she's talking about weight, pressure, or force.

Yet she says to keep your weight behind the ball.

What animosity? I've asked some questions. I've seen her (attempt to) answer questions on The Facebook. And I've asked you questions here.

This does not seem terribly effective to me, and worse than that, a good bit of it seems downright wrong or misguided.

I'm heading to bed. I'll re-iterate that again I'm glad that you've found something you like, and that you enjoy golf and can play despite your injuries, but this is where I bow out. I'll re-join the thread if you can provide satisfactory answers to a few of the questions asked above, but as Kiran has been unable to do so in the discussions I've seen, I'll not get my hopes up.

"Satisfactory Answers?" So first a person must understand all things about all things before trying something? When you first picked up a golf club, how much did you understand? Let's be rational. We love the game and all search for more complete methods to improve our performance. At the First Tee, I see hundreds of kids each summer who want to escape some very bad home situations through golf. The joy of hitting a golf ball effectively stays with them for weeks and maybe longer. We all have tried lots of techniques we didn't fully understand or gadgets we did not design to improve our golf and we will in the future. To me it smacks of silliness to demand someone explain something fully before validating it, especially in sport with all the various muscles involved. (Trackman did not create Hogan or Norman or Tiger) Kiran's pre-sets remove the timing element from the traditional swing and allow for much better contact more often. Hogan-like positions from "Five Lessons" are easily seen in her set-up, back-swing and downswing.

Now there are levels to sport performance. I'm sure data and Trackman are perfectly appropriate for semi-pro and pro players but to insist that that is the only way to evaluate a golfing technique is silly. I have taught this method to other students and benefitted from it personally. And yes, i believe people, you, and Tiger should try Kiran's Minimalist Golf Swing System!

[iacas]

"Satisfactory Answers?" So first a person must understand all things about all things before trying something?

I didn't ask for you to explain (or understand) all things about all things. I asked very specific questions that highlight gaps in Kiran's understanding of the golf swing.

Hogan-like positions from "Five Lessons" are easily seen in her set-up, back-swing and downswing.

I disagree.

I'm sure data and Trackman are perfectly appropriate for semi-pro and pro players but to insist that that is the only way to evaluate a golfing technique is silly.

Why do you keep bringing up Trackman?

Like I said, until you can answer some of the questions I've asked, I'm pretty much out.

I'm still happy that you're happy. Good for you. But please don't engage with me if you're not going to answer the questions.