Equitable Stroke Control (ESC) Discussion

[$2 Nassau]

Actually, it isn't that good of fight, more misinformed.

How would putting a maximum of Double Bogey at Augusta speed up play?

Are you saying that players at Augusta, for example, when playing a par 4 will just pick their ball up after their 6th stroke and move to the next hole?? That's the only way I can see that rule speeding up play. Well that is definitely not golf, and that is not even close to what ESC is. I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but ESC has nothing to do with anything ON the golf course. I'm sure you are aware of that though. If you get a 10 on a hole then you write down 10 on your scorecard. It's only when you enter the score in for your handicap that you adjust it appropriately. You don't just pick your ball up after you have reached the limit like you are saying they do at Augusta. If that's what you think ESC is, then yes, you are correct that would be a disservice to golf. Again, not trying to be a wiseguy. But ESC has nothing to do with speeding up play. What they do at Augusta is, well....what they do at Augusta. And if that is in fact what they do, then it's silly. I direct you to this....the USGA website in which section 4-3 on this page says that ESC is for the purpose of reducing high scores for handicap purposes. So yes, contrary to what you wrote above, it is intended to reduce infated handicaps. The site also mentions that without the use of ESC, basically your index is useless. Yeah I know, you don't agree with the USGA, but it's the governing body of our handicaps so kind of have to go with it. http://www.usga.org/playing/handicap...ection_04.html I do understand where you are coming from but just because you don't like it doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. The handicap is not an exact representation of the scores you shoot anyway, even if you don't use ESC. By not using it, it's not like you are some golf purist or something. But that's your choice of course, I just hope you are not entering any tourneys, because you are cheating if you do. You know what else is unfair and a disservice? Paying taxes, but guess what, we still do it don't we?

[iacas]

The reason the ESC was set up was not to fight inflated handicaps, it can actually be traced to Augusta where the elite membership would only take a maximum double bogey on any hole, more to speed up play than anything.

That's not where it traces to, no.

Dean Knuth took that concept applied false logic and created the ESC.

You're wrong. You can look at the logic he applied. If you can somehow prove that it's false, by all means, go ahead. However, "it's false logic" isn't proof at all.

Handicaps are not a rule of golf, in fact appendix III specifically states" The rules of golf do not legislate for the allocation and adjustment of handicaps." Individual unions throughout the world decide, so sorry the ESC is not universally accepted or used.

Uhm, neither are the USGA rules. They govern only, what, the U.S. and Mexico, I believe. If you're going to pick nits, expect the same.

Lastly, the definition of potential is;that can, but has not yet come into being; possible, latent, unrealized or undeveloped. Nothing to do with succeed or not succeed, could be either way.

No, you're wrong again. "Unrealized and undeveloped" indicate something toward the higher ends of achievement, not the worse ends (i.e. quadruple bogeys). And besides, I said the connotative use - which is clearly towards the realm of "better" rather than "worse."

Truly, post any score that makes you feel good. I haven't read anything here that disproves that the ESC is a disservice to golf.

Correction: you've not posted anything here which shows that it is.

How would putting a maximum of Double Bogey at Augusta speed up play?

If you're going to try to engage the guy, don't let him sidetrack you away from the real issue. The real issue is that he doesn't like ESC, for whatever reason, and that's it.

That being said, you make a very good point here, and one I tried to mention earlier: ESC only comes into play when you're putting in scores for a handicap. It's not used to determine the outcome of matches (stroke-play or match play) when the RULES OF GOLF say that you play every hole to the end (with the obvious exception of concessions in match play):

I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but ESC has nothing to do with anything ON the golf course. I'm sure you are aware of that though. If you get a 10 on a hole then you write down 10 on your scorecard. It's only when you enter the score in for your handicap that you adjust it appropriately. You don't just pick your ball up after you have reached the limit like you are saying they do at Augusta. If that's what you think ESC is, then yes, you are correct that would be a disservice to golf.

[Jeepthrills]

I can understand why many people don't like ESC. I can also see why it is used. It is a rule and therefore I play by it. Like it or not. The word potential is meant to indicate ability. If we replaced potential with ability it would possibly fit better for the argument. I am a 16.9 because there were enough times in my last 20 rounds that I had the ability to shoot in the 80's to result in that index. However, I have also had several rounds where I was in the 90's and even one in the 100's. What keeps me from being a single digit is consistency. I have the ability to make birdie on just about every hole I play. I can also make a much bigger number as well. ESC keeps people from having big fluctuations in their handicap.

About 10 years ago there was an article in one of the golf mags that compared two fictional golfers. Wild Bill and Steady Eddie both were 15.0 handicaps. Wild Bill had huge fluctuations in his scores that he posted. His best was a 75 and his worst was a 95. Steady Eddie was usually +/- a few shots of 85. His best was an 80 and his worst was a 90. When they took the 10 best from each guy they found that they were both a 15. However, when they did an average of all 20 scores Eddie stayed at 15 while Bill jumped to a 20.

If these guys played a one day match, the advantage went slightly to Wild Bill. He had the ability to go lower than Eddie if we played his best. However, if they played a 4 day tournament, it was more likely that Steady Eddie would win as he was less likely to have the blow up round.

Esc is what keeps Bill a 15 and not a 20. Is it fair? That all depends on how you look at it. I would tend to agree that ESC, overall, benefits the better player as they are less likely to have blow up rounds. In my case ESC may actually keep my handicap lower than what my average round may indicate. That said, I will continue to use it whenever I post my scores. I will also still strive to be a lower handicap. I just want it to be from my ability to shoot lower scores, not my inability to post higher numbers.

[HarlDane]

Actually, it isn't that good of fight, more misinformed.

Love it or hate it, ESC is a part of handicapping and as you know handicapping is a method of comparing golfers of different skill levels so that they can compete on a level playing field. When you choose to disregard the established rules everyone else is following for determining a handicap then there is no way of comparing yourself to the rest of the field as you have a different set of guidelines your following. You may be fine with this, but please do not enter net score tourneys as you would be cheating.

I'd also like to point out the irony of you disregarding ESC when the formula for determining a handicap is already going to adjust your score based on other factors of the round.

[HarlDane]

I can understand why many people don't like ESC. I can also see why it is used. It is a rule and therefore I play by it. Like it or not. The word potential is meant to indicate ability. If we replaced potential with ability it would possibly fit better for the argument. I am a 16.9 because there were enough times in my last 20 rounds that I had the ability to shoot in the 80's to result in that index. However, I have also had several rounds where I was in the 90's and even one in the 100's. What keeps me from being a single digit is consistency. I have the ability to make birdie on just about every hole I play. I can also make a much bigger number as well. ESC keeps people from having big fluctuations in their handicap.

A handicap was never meant to determine your average round on an average day. You should play at your handicap 25% of the time or less. So yes, it's fair that Wild Bill have a 15 handicap.

[iacas]

I've moved this to its own thread.

[lamebums]

I fully support ESC. Maybe it's a pride or ego thing, but I hate it when my handicap goes up.

To the naysayers, see, here's the deal. The handicap is supposed to be your potential, say, if you shot on your best day. Thing is, ESC prevents one blowup hole from causing too much damage and artificially inflating your handicap, which will help combat sandbagging. If you shoot your handicap or better - we are assuming that you shot your best, and that included no blowup holes.

[Jeepthrills]

A handicap was never meant to determine your average round on an average day. You should play at your handicap 25% of the time or less. So yes, it's fair that Wild Bill have a 15 handicap.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's unfair. I'm simply saying that it is what it is. It makes most golfers look better on paper than they actually are. If you should only be able to play to your handicap 25% of the time then it hardly levels the field. It clearly gives the advantage to the better golfer. I am not opposed to that at all. In fact, I think all other things being equal, the better player should have an edge. It's the whole sandbagger factor that screws the better golfer much of the time.

[iacas]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's unfair. I'm simply saying that it is what it is. It makes most golfers look better on paper than they actually are. If you should only be able to play to your handicap 25% of the time then it hardly levels the field. It clearly gives the advantage to the better golfer. I am not opposed to that at all. In fact, I think all other things being equal, the better player should have an edge. It's the whole sandbagger factor that screws the better golfer much of the time.

The better player doesn't have an edge in:

a) match play against a single high-handicap golfer b) stroke play against a good number of high-handicap golfers The only time the better player has an edge in a handicapped match is against a single golfer in a total stroke play event, where his net +1 will likely beat the other guy's net +3 or whatever. In each of the previous two cases, he's at a disadvantage. He'll likely have to birdie holes for wins and sometimes for halves, with the occasional "blow up hole" by the high handicapper in match play. In stroke play, again, a high handicapper shooting 10% below his handicap will result in a lower score than a low handicapper shooting even 30% below his handicap.

[Jeepthrills]

The better player doesn't have an edge in:

Both of your examples are very true. I was thinking more along the lines of how it effects me, which is in head to head stroke play. I rarely get to play any match play rounds and my matches that do count are all net stroke play. As I mentioned in previous posts, I am always giving strokes in my league. Sad as that may be. In stroke play against one guy I can often overcome a big deficit in a few holes since my opponents all have major blow up potential. I would have no chance in Match play as I would be giving guys as many as 2 shots per hole.

[Finn07]

I fully support ESC. Maybe it's a pride or ego thing, but I hate it when my handicap goes up.

I thought you said in another thread that you didnt want to pay the 25 bucks to get a handicap cause the pro said it wasnt worth it.

[lamebums]

I thought you said in another thread that you didnt want to pay the 25 bucks to get a handicap cause the pro said it wasnt worth it.

Considering 1) it's this late in the year and 2) I won't be entering any official events until at

least next year, I don't see it as being worth it, either. At least not until then. But I do keep an unofficial handicap.

[TourSpoon]

The better player doesn't have an edge in:

To state it another way would be to say that a low handicapper has consistency on their side in net events while the high handicapper has inconsistency on their side which gives them the ability to really go low on net if they have a good day (or go in the other direction as well). If you play a large field I find that one of the high guys will have a good day which will beat a low guys good day. That's why I prefer the flighted tournaments. In a one on one, consistency will prevail more often then not.

I have no problem with ESC. Of course it is not perfect as it will offer a different scenario between similar golfers (like a nine and a ten having different ESC rules). I understand the potential thing and have always equated a 5 cap to mean that the person probably will break 80 more often than not (playing from a high rated set of tees). The problem comes when someone takes it literal and doesn't understand that there is a formula based on potential and thinks that if they score 90 then they are automatically an 18 when they could very well be a 16 based on rating, slope, esc, etc. Good discussion. It is making me think.