Pete's Programme (Single Digit to Tour Player)

[32quattro]

To far, I was thinking to have a matchplay

[Nosevi]

To far, I was thinking to have a matchplay

Love matchplay, becoming my favourite format. If you're ever down this way give me a shout - I play Monday to Friday by agreement with my wife and Saturday to Sunday when she's not looking.

[32quattro]

Love matchplay, becoming my favourite format. If you're ever down this way give me a shout - I play Monday to Friday by agreement with my wife and Saturday to Sunday when she's not looking.

I will be in Shere (Surrey) in September as every year for a month. My wife doesn't agree on golfing in holiday: :-D

[Nosevi]

Simple solution would be to call it something other than a holiday..... No, that wouldn't work for me either.

[Nosevi]

Just a quick post. I won't keep bleating on as I've promised this won't be a blow by blow, day by day account - it'd be unfair to start doing that then just disappear - but had an interesting late afternoon and early evening and it relates slightly to something posted on the thread about that other bloke's plan

Just kidding but it does relate to knowing what your target is, how good do you need to get to be sensibly thinking about talking tours player and tournament golf.

I spent a few hours caddying for a guy I know who is off on Sunday to play in qualifying for The Open Championship (The British Open to you lot ). It was on one of my home courses so I know it well and I could compare my play pretty well to theirs. In fact the wind was more or less spot on what is was for my last round there so it was easy to make direct comparisons.

Overall most things were fine margins, especially around the greens - his putting was just a fraction better, his pitching just a bit more precise, his bunker play a little more accurate. I actually dropped balls next to his on a couple of holes (by prior agreement obviously) where he missed the green and both of us got up and down. Driving, which is a strength of mine, to be honest I was better over my last few rounds - we're nip and tuck on distance but I hit more fairways. Total driving distance I would have been ahead simply by virtue of my ball hitting the fairway more often and so rolling.

Short and mid iron play he would have just had me I think but there was one place where the difference in our game really stood out and that was in the long iron department. An example was on the 18th which is a par 5 playing about 520 yards today. He hit a 5 iron from about 220 yards out as his second shot to 10 feet and although he missed the eagle putt that shot is just not one I currently have in my bag. Every other shot he hit today was within my current capabilities and it's really a matter of hitting the good ones more often and the bad ones less often but 'pureing' a long iron like that isn't something I'll currently do other by accident or by divine intervention.

Other than realising my long irons need some serious work it was good to caddy for the guy and see how a really good player goes about approaching a track I know well. All part of the learning process

[PapaMatt]

Short and mid iron play he would have just had me I think but there was one place where the difference in our game really stood out and that was in the long iron department. An example was on the 18th which is a par 5 playing about 520 yards today. He hit a 5 iron from about 220 yards out as his second shot to 10 feet and although he missed the eagle putt that shot is just not one I currently have in my bag. Every other shot he hit today was within my current capabilities and it's really a matter of hitting the good ones more often and the bad ones less often but 'pureing' a long iron like that isn't something I'll currently do other by accident or by divine intervention.

Pete have you read "Every Shot Counts"? What you described is basically the conclusion all of his stats pointed to: the best in the world are great at everything but the very best excel at long approach shots. Until his demise, Tiger was head and shoulders above the rest of the tour in that department. As someone said in another thread on this board, you need to be able to hit that "towering 4 iron" to be a pro.

[Nosevi]

Pete have you read "Every Shot Counts"? What you described is basically the conclusion all of his stats pointed to: the best in the world are great at everything but the very best excel at long approach shots. Until his demise, Tiger was head and shoulders above the rest of the tour in that department. As someone said in another thread on this board, you need to be able to hit that "towering 4 iron" to be a pro.

Hi. I haven't read that book but it doesn't surprise me having spent some time practising with a guy who plays on tour. I've spent some time on my long irons over the last few days and I'm making some improvements there. In fact my bag currently has one too many clubs in it as I had taken out my 4 iron in favour of a hybrid but now have both in there. While the hybrid gives me options from the rough etc that the 4 iron doesn't, I've put the long iron back in simply for practice.

[b101]

Hi. I haven't read that book but it doesn't surprise me having spent some time practising with a guy who plays on tour. I've spent some time on my long irons over the last few days and I'm making some improvements there. In fact my bag currently has one too many clubs in it as I had taken out my 4 iron in favour of a hybrid but now have both in there. While the hybrid gives me options from the rough etc that the 4 iron doesn't, I've put the long iron back in simply for practice.

Out of interest, is there anything specific you've found in your swing that makes the lower irons harder to launch or are you just practising to 'get used to it'? As ever, this is a great insight.

[Nosevi]

Out of interest, is there anything specific you've found in your swing that makes the lower irons harder to launch or are you just practising to 'get used to it'? As ever, this is a great insight.

To be honest it really seems to be a case of practising to get used to it to a certain extent. I launch all my irons a tad higher than the guy I practice with who plays on tour. I actually launch them almost exactly the same trajectory as a guy who came round to use my launch monitor and swing studio yesterday who plays the Elite Amateur circuit here in the UK. I think Brian (the tour pro) is at the lower end of the spectrum) and myself and Josh (the Elite Amateur) are towards the higher end. It's not a problem with being able to launch the ball, it's more pureness of strike and compression of the golf ball with the long irons.

That said I've spent some time over the last few days doing compression and power drills that Brian suggested and my carry with my irons has gone up by close to 10 yards literally in the last week - 8 iron carry is pushing 160 yards carry in still air now. If you look at actual data from the tour (rather than internet yards posted on forums :) ) you'll see that most pros on the PGA Tour fall at about the 160-165 yard mark with an 8 iron. At the same time I've started to strike my 4 iron far better and it's carrying about 200 yards or a tad more on a decent strike. I feel the two must be linked - more compression in all irons equalling a far better result at the upper end.

The main drill I've been doing is a 'pump' drill where you go from halfway back down to impact (keeping the right wrist bent back), halfway back down into impact, then all the way back and fire through with the power feeling like it's coming from the right arm pushing down on the ball to compress it. I've seen the elite squads doing something similar with a medicine ball, slamming it into the ground where the ball would be with the right arm. I've also been working on triceps strength to help (high rep, low weight for now) This power from firing down into the ball is something that was lacking in my swing and it's really added quite a bit of power with the irons.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

That said I've spent some time over the last few days doing compression and power drills that Brian suggested and my carry with my irons has gone up by close to 10 yards literally in the last week - 8 iron carry is pushing 160 yards carry in still air now. If you look at actual data from the tour, you'll see that most pros on the PGA Tour fall at about the 160-165 yard mark with an 8 iron. At the same time I've started to strike my 4 iron far better and it's carrying about 200 yards or a tad more on a decent strike. I feel the two must be linked - more compression in all irons equalling a far better result at the upper end.

There are plenty of people who could hit farther, and I do mean with the appropriate lofts. Many of the D1 college level players can hit this far or farther. What I think is that the tour players back off to 80% effort to hit this particular distance with an 8i. Ernie Els is quoted as stating 80% effort is the way to control your swing.

Quote:

I almost never hit a shot all out, and I make a conscious effort to swing my long clubs just as I do my wedges. Keep this in mind when hitting your fairway woods.

[Nosevi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

That said I've spent some time over the last few days doing compression and power drills that Brian suggested and my carry with my irons has gone up by close to 10 yards literally in the last week - 8 iron carry is pushing 160 yards carry in still air now. If you look at actual data from the tour, you'll see that most pros on the PGA Tour fall at about the 160-165 yard mark with an 8 iron. At the same time I've started to strike my 4 iron far better and it's carrying about 200 yards or a tad more on a decent strike. I feel the two must be linked - more compression in all irons equalling a far better result at the upper end.

There are plenty of people who could hit farther, and I do mean with the appropriate lofts. Many of the D1 college level players can hit this far or farther. What I think is that the tour players back off to 80% effort to hit this particular distance with an 8i. Ernie Els is quoted as stating 80% effort is the way to control your swing.

Quote:

I almost never hit a shot all out, and I make a conscious effort to swing my long clubs just as I do my wedges. Keep this in mind when hitting your fairway woods.

While this is true, mate, I'm 9 months into probably a 4 or so year programme to make it to a tour a couple of levels down from there. I practice along side a guy at that level, he's on the long side on that tour (and trust me, would be at D1 college level - he played for his international team and the majority of guys at D1 college level won't get to that level, he was off about plus 5 at the time) and I know his data totally because it's all taken on the kit that mine is taken on. If you look at his data compared to pro quoted yardages he's almost spot on the same as Ernie Els's quoted yardages per club (212 yards with a 4 iron in Ernie's case).

Trackman have done studies over the years on PGA and LPGA tour average yardages as hit while on trackman sessions. For the PGA Tour it was 160 yards for an 8 iron and that didn't change between about 2004 and 2012 - 160 yards, a little under 8,000 rpm, a little over 18 degrees trajectory - none of these numbers really changed a lot. Between 2004 and 2008 they displayed the max and min and the longest tour pro (no idea who it was) averaged 166 yards carry with an 8 iron. Now, while these numbers may have gone up a tad it won't be by that much. I'm sure the top end will be up a little (Dustin Johnson for example quoted his 8 iron at 172 yards carry) the average is probably now just a shade over the 160 yard mark.

Where does all of this leave me? I'm not 'there' yet - I'm in this for the long haul - but the point is I'm starting to get into the ball park of where I need to get to distance wise. It is important. It's not the whole picture but without it you won't make it to any tour level, the courses are just so long now that it's pretty much a prerequisite.

[Nosevi]

Just to add a quick point, what feels like 80% effort is not 80% distance. Taking my 5 wood as an example I carry it about 230 yards when I go after it, I lose maybe 10 yards with an easy swing. Guessing with irons that difference is maybe 5 yards when I back it off a bit and I'll get maybe 5 yards more than my average if I lean on it a little.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

That said I've spent some time over the last few days doing compression and power drills that Brian suggested and my carry with my irons has gone up by close to 10 yards literally in the last week - 8 iron carry is pushing 160 yards carry in still air now. If you look at actual data from the tour, you'll see that most pros on the PGA Tour fall at about the 160-165 yard mark with an 8 iron. At the same time I've started to strike my 4 iron far better and it's carrying about 200 yards or a tad more on a decent strike. I feel the two must be linked - more compression in all irons equalling a far better result at the upper end.

There are plenty of people who could hit farther, and I do mean with the appropriate lofts. Many of the D1 college level players can hit this far or farther. What I think is that the tour players back off to 80% effort to hit this particular distance with an 8i. Ernie Els is quoted as stating 80% effort is the way to control your swing.

Quote:

I almost never hit a shot all out, and I make a conscious effort to swing my long clubs just as I do my wedges. Keep this in mind when hitting your fairway woods.

Trackman have done studies over the years on PGA and LPGA tour average yardages as hit while on trackman sessions. For the PGA Tour it was 160 yards for an 8 iron and that didn't change between about 2004 and 2012 - 160 yards, a little under 8,000 rpm, a little over 18 degrees trajectory - none of these numbers really changed a lot. Between 2004 and 2008 they displayed the max and min and the longest tour pro (no idea who it was) averaged 166 yards carry with an 8 iron. Now, while these numbers may have gone up a tad it won't be by that much. I'm sure the top end will be up a little (Dustin Johnson for example quoted his 8 iron at 172 yards carry) the average is probably now just a shade over the 160 yard mark.

My point about the D1 players is that many do not really throttle back their swings, and pros do.

What I think is that pro players back off to 80% effort to get a more consistent 160 yard 8i. Who needs to hit an 8i more than that, anyway? Even Dustin and Bubba probably throttle their swing down to get 172.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Just to add a quick point, what feels like 80% effort is not 80% distance .

Right, but I'm not talking about 80% feel from your maximum, but 80% of your relaxed full swing where you get the most distance. You might lose only a few yards or so? Maybe?

For example, I've backed off my swing from "200% down to 80%" according to one of the people I play, but have gained a little distance in doing so. I can imagine taking 80% of the effort from this already reduced swing and getting maybe slightly less yardage, but way more control. Instead of carrying my 8i (with a 41 degree loft) 150 yards with range balls, I would carry something a little less than that but gain way more accuracy. Just a theory.

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by Lihu

Right, but I'm not talking about 80% feel from your maximum, but 80% of your relaxed full swing where you get the most distance. You might lose only a few yards or so? Maybe?

For example, I've backed off my swing from "200% down to 80%" according to one of the people I play, but have gained a little distance in doing so. I can imagine taking 80% of the effort from this already reduced swing and getting maybe slightly less yardage, but way more control. Instead of carrying my 8i (with a 41 degree loft) 150 yards with range balls, I would carry something a little less than that but gain way more accuracy. Just a theory.

You're not wrong, you do get more control. Here are a couple of examples of me hitting it shorter to get control. On a GC2 when you hit shots it records the shot number so you can see these are consecutive shots. I was playing with a draw and a fade at the time. I lose a little distance when I fade the ball but do tend to put it down the same line better. (target is about 4 or 5 left of centreline due to the way the kit is set up - on the range these fell on target but recorded on an ipad it doesn't know the 'aim off' I dial in. Kind of tough to explain :) )

Did this set at some stage, 20 shots I think it was, all kind of where I wanted them:

Point is you're absolutely spot on, backing it off does give control (at least it does for me) and that goes right down to the driver. I'd score better on most of the courses I'm currently playing on if I did that all the time. The snag comes when the course starts getting longer or much longer and what was a drive and a 9 iron becomes a drive and a 4 iron. At that point you lose the control because the 4 iron is (obviously) a longer club, you've lost the spin on the ball, lost some decent angle etc. At the point where the course is 7200 odd yards you need to be hitting it further unless you happen to be an ace with a 2 iron.......... and I'm not

[ChrisWev]

Thanks. I was lucky in a way with the finances as I was in the military and on a pension scheme that pays out as you leave

My guess is you finished up at RAF Waddington or RAF Coningsby and you've just done your 22?

I was at Coningsby from 2005-2008 on Typhoon. Used to live in Lincoln too, not a bad place. Played a few casual "rounds" at RAF Woodhall Spa back in the day, but nothing serious.

Love the thread btw, looks like you're doing very well with the swing and losing loads of weight, which is great. I would be interested what you do for short game practice when outside without GC2 HMT? Or do you dial in all your ranges in your swing room and then just apply that to the course?

I'm hoping for some rapid progression over the summer too, then I might look at doing something similar. Started playing properly last summer (went from 87kg to 76kg too :) then got injured for 8 month, been back playing a couple of month and I'm probably down to about a 15-16 HCP now (UK), My aim is to get to sub 10 by the time the clocks go back/ forward. I could do with looking at strokes gained or something like that to see where I'm failing at the minute. Putting is by far the worst, but that's going to be the easiest to improve so I'm not fussed about that.

I've been working on 20-90 yards this week as I've not looked at this properly and this needs work, I'm going with a complicated variation of Pelz 4x3, but I do:

Pitch (normal grip, full length): 25%, 50% with 8i-64 deg - I don't bother with 75% or 100% as my full swing with most of these is about 85%

Pitch (normal grip, choke down all way): 50% with 8i-64 deg

Chip (baseball grip, choke down all the way): 25%, 50% with 8i-64 deg

This gives me 35 shot variations (which are from about 20-90 yards carry, before getting into full shots). I'm definitely a numbers man so I have all this wrote down, put notes against which are high risk or I'm not good with etc. It's going to look like a risk assessment when I'm finished, very geeky!

Then I've just got normal "feel" chips for closer and a sort of putting stroke shot for my wedges if I need that, which works unbelievably well.

Some may see this as way complicated but to me it only feels like 2 different shots and only two different variations of backswing, the only thing that moves is ball position, takes out the guesswork.

[Lihu]

I would be interested what you do for short game practice when outside without GC2 HMT? Or do you dial in all your ranges in your swing room and then just apply that to the course?

I would just pace off anything less than 100 yards. Doesn't seem like GC2 would be required?

[Nosevi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Thanks. I was lucky in a way with the finances as I was in the military and on a pension scheme that pays out as you leave

My guess is you finished up at RAF Waddington or RAF Coningsby and you've just done your 22?

I was at Coningsby from 2005-2008 on Typhoon. Used to live in Lincoln too, not a bad place. Played a few casual "rounds" at RAF Woodhall Spa back in the day, but nothing serious.

Love the thread btw, looks like you're doing very well with the swing and losing loads of weight, which is great. I would be interested what you do for short game practice when outside without GC2 HMT? Or do you dial in all your ranges in your swing room and then just apply that to the course?

I'm hoping for some rapid progression over the summer too, then I might look at doing something similar. Started playing properly last summer (went from 87kg to 76kg too :) then got injured for 8 month, been back playing a couple of month and I'm probably down to about a 15-16 HCP now (UK), My aim is to get to sub 10 by the time the clocks go back/ forward. I could do with looking at strokes gained or something like that to see where I'm failing at the minute. Putting is by far the worst, but that's going to be the easiest to improve so I'm not fussed about that.

I've been working on 20-90 yards this week as I've not looked at this properly and this needs work, I'm going with a complicated variation of Pelz 4x3, but I do:

Pitch (normal grip, full length): 25%, 50% with 8i-64 deg - I don't bother with 75% or 100% as my full swing with most of these is about 85%

Pitch (normal grip, choke down all way): 50% with 8i-64 deg

Chip (baseball grip, choke down all the way): 25%, 50% with 8i-64 deg

This gives me 35 shot variations (which are from about 20-90 yards carry, before getting into full shots). I'm definitely a numbers man so I have all this wrote down, put notes against which are high risk or I'm not good with etc. It's going to look like a risk assessment when I'm finished, very geeky!

Then I've just got normal "feel" chips for closer and a sort of putting stroke shot for my wedges if I need that, which works unbelievably well.

Some may see this as way complicated but to me it only feels like 2 different shots and only two different variations of backswing, the only thing that moves is ball position, takes out the guesswork.

Hi there. I did my 16 years (I was one of 'them' :) ) and last tour was as SATCO at Scampton with the Reds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisWev

I would be interested what you do for short game practice when outside without GC2 HMT? Or do you dial in all your ranges in your swing room and then just apply that to the course?

I would just pace off anything less than 100 yards. Doesn't seem like GC2 would be required?

Answering both of you I do both - some stand alone stuff outside but also use the GC2 on the practice area (it'll run on its batteries for quite a while). I do dial the wedges in inside if the weather is really bad but most of my pitching is done outside. One thing I use the GC2 for is when practising 'against' one of the pros - we set up competitions firing at different yardages with the GC2 being the 'judge' - saves on arguments :)

I also do quite a lot of time just around the green, though. You can do small pitches and chips onto our putting so I spend quite a bit of time simply practising getting up and down from different places. Also straight putting practice as well.

Regarding the Pelz thing, one of the Pros (Jess) has suggested we start doing the Pelz short game handicap test. Not started doing it yet but looking to perhaps incorporate it in the next week or two. We're starting to do the combine on the GC2 for long game competition so the Pelz test should fit in nicely. I think it's good to have this sort of competition as it really drives you forward. Brian, the other pro, is away quite a bit (he's a couple under par on the 12th somewhere up in Scotland right now.....) but will get him to do a combine when he's around some time.

I actually had a lad who's a pretty good player over to do a gap testing in the sim the day before yesterday. He plays off scratch but that's a 'travelling' scratch as he plays the Amateur Circuit here in the UK. Was interesting to see the differences between me, him then Brian as his level is really my next target.

[ChrisWev]

Sorry, I wasn't on about measuring etc. I was more getting at can you practice short game and gc2 be accurate enough to transfer yardages over to grass. And what system do you use for shots 25%/50% etc or just feel?