Claim Chowder: Rory has another Decade (or has to change his swing)

[iacas]

My personal experiences are at least as relevant as the ridiculous speculation that was the start of this thread.  I have very fast hips, and I hit more than enough buckets of balls to know whether or not it really contributes to injuries. It does not.

Ridiculous speculation, eh? It kinda is, but I made no statements that it was a serious, earnest statement. I put it up as claim chowder for discussion. I labeled it as such. You don't even know if I actually believe it - I may be playing devil's advocate to create a discussion. I basically said that Tiger claimed to have given up some of his dynamic nature to become more consistent. Perhaps Rory will need to do the same, specifically because of this, and let people discuss it.

C'mon now… You responded with just your feel that you had fast hips. Maybe you do. Most likely you don't. You also might have an entirely different motion than Rory, with a very different right elbow position, etc. Generally speaking, I agree that your personal experiences probably don't matter a ton to this conversation, particularly as we don't even know how accurate they are. Maybe they're spot on? Maybe they're way off. We don't know. I would bet quite heavily your hips are not as fast as Rory's, though.

[Phil McGleno]

@IACAS -I think he is just saying his arms are slow. Since you said it above are you playing devil advocate or is it something you actually think is true/Accurate?

[mvmac]

@IACAS-I think he is just saying his arms are slow.

Since you said it above are you playing devil advocate or is it something you actually think is true/Accurate?

I know you asked Erik but...

I would agree his arms are probably slow and he sees (or feels) his pivot get ahead of his arms and assumes he has "fast hips".

[natureboy]

Thoughts?

P.S. I may be playing devil's advocate in a few days. :)

This guy looks similarly stuck - especially if I could have stopped a frame or two earlier to catch him in same position (he looks a hair further down). And he didn't hit up on the ball. Rory is certainly doomed!

[iacas]

Since you said it above are you playing devil advocate or is it something you actually think is true/Accurate?

About Rory? I don't know. I mostly just thought it would make for an interesting discussion.

I do think that Rory has fast enough arms/hands that he could continue to hit it as far as he does now while keeping his hands (and elbow) more "in front of him." I also think he could be more consistent and would reduce his outward path. So, I will say I think Rory could be more consistent with a change.

I also think that Rory might only be planning to play until he's 40 or so, and maybe he'll hold up just fine until then. I also think that he can gradually continue to work on this. There's already evidence that he's doing this. His elbow is not as far behind him as it was when he duck-hooked it off 10 at Augusta National, and it may be something he continues to work on.

This guy looks similarly stuck…

No, he doesn't, and it's not even close. And IMO this isn't an opinion. Saying that Hogan was stuck is laughable. What's next: you're gonna tell us that Jason Dufner is push elbow? :P

[saevel25]

No, he doesn't, and it's not even close. And IMO this isn't an opinion. Saying that Hogan was stuck is laughable. What's next: you're gonna tell us that Jason Dufner is push elbow? :P

I agree. You can see Hogan's hips are just square in that image and his elbow is slightly ahead of his right side. With Rory, his hips are more open than Hogans, and Rory's right elbow is clearly more behind him at this point compared to the amount of body turn.

Not even close to the same position.

[Ernest Jones]

And IMO this isn't an opinion. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/122923/] [/URL]

Ha ha. Totally stealing this line. :-$

[mvmac]

Turning rates, elbow location, upper arm orientation and the rate the left arm has moved away from the right shoulder, all are different. Hogan's hands are more "in front", hips aren't opening as soon, right elbow is rotated more down, under and in front, left arm is less connected to his chest.

Let's try not to go off on a tangent about this, the picture is pretty clear, let's keep things on topic please.

[natureboy]

About Rory? I don't know. I mostly just thought it would make for an interesting discussion.

I do think that Rory has fast enough arms/hands that he could continue to hit it as far as he does now while keeping his hands (and elbow) more "in front of him." I also think he could be more consistent and would reduce his outward path. So, I will say I think Rory could be more consistent with a change.

I also think that Rory might only be planning to play until he's 40 or so, and maybe he'll hold up just fine until then. I also think that he can gradually continue to work on this. There's already evidence that he's doing this. His elbow is not as far behind him as it was when he duck-hooked it off 10 at Augusta National, and it may be something he continues to work on.

No, he doesn't, and it's not even close. And IMO this isn't an opinion. Saying that Hogan was stuck is laughable. What's next: you're gonna tell us that Jason Dufner is push elbow? :P

First of all, the Hogan 'critique' it was tongue-in-cheek. With very similar camera angles his R elbow looks in a similar position to Rory with driver. I think Rory's hitting up on driver relative to Hogan is relevant to his arm path. Pics above are iron swings and I am not sure about the camera angle relative to the target. Hogan looks to be aiming slightly right of camera view and Rory I assume is going for the green visible in the distance.

I agree. You can see Hogan's hips are just square in that image and his elbow is slightly ahead of his right side. With Rory, his hips are more open than Hogans, and Rory's right elbow is clearly more behind him at this point compared to the amount of body turn.

Not even close to the same position.

Camera angle is not necessarily down the target line in these two pics. What I see is that both Hogan's and Rory's shoulders are closed relative to their hips, both of which may be square to the target?? Hogan's R elbow (with the iron) appears to be significantly lower and a bit more forward of his midline than Rory. I would take more stock in the elbow position relative to the midline (trouser seam) because their choice of clothes matters greatly in estimating how high the elbow is. Hogan is wearing old-style high waisted baggy trousers so his beltline is way higher than Rory's. Just look at the apparent torso length differences. Rory also happens to be covering his hip-riding beltline with a loose sweater that further lowers his apparent waistline.

[iacas]

@natureboy , on this you're simply wrong. Hogan's right elbow is nowhere near where Rory's is, and we aren't taking about Hogan here either (particularly because it's so different to Rory's).

[Ernest Jones]

First of all, the Hogan 'critique' it was tongue-in-cheek. With very similar camera angles his R elbow looks in a similar position to Rory with driver. I think Rory's hitting up on driver relative to Hogan is relevant to his arm path. Pics above are iron swings and I am not sure about the camera angle relative to the target. Hogan looks to be aiming slightly right of camera view and Rory I assume is going for the green visible in the distance. Camera angle is not necessarily down the target line in these two pics. What I see is that both Hogan's and Rory's shoulders are closed relative to their hips, both of which may be square to the target?? Hogan's R elbow (with the iron) appears to be significantly lower and a bit more forward of his midline than Rory. I would take more stock in the elbow position relative to the midline (trouser seam) because their choice of clothes matters greatly in estimating how high the elbow is. Hogan is wearing old-style high waisted baggy trousers so his beltline is way higher than Rory's. Just look at the apparent torso length differences. Rory also happens to be covering his hip-riding beltline with a loose sweater that further lowers his apparent waistline.

It takes a unique talent to back pedal and plow forward at the same time, so kudus for that feat. But no, Rory and Ben are not in the same position here regardless of what kind of pants they are wearing. Read @mvmac 's post, it's pretty comprehensive.

[mvmac]

[QUOTE name="natureboy" url="/t/82191/claim-chowder-rory-has-another-decade-or-has-to-change-his-swing/36#post_1148276"] Camera angle is not necessarily down the target line in these two pics. What I see is that both Hogan's and Rory's shoulders are closed relative to their hips, both of which may be square to the target?? Hogan's R elbow (with the iron) appears to be significantly lower and a bit more forward of his midline than Rory. I would take more stock in the elbow position relative to the midline (trouser seam) because their choice of clothes matters greatly in estimating how high the elbow is. Hogan is wearing old-style high waisted baggy trousers so his beltline is way higher than Rory's. Just look at the apparent torso length differences. Rory also happens to be covering his hip-riding beltline with a loose sweater that further lowers his apparent waistline. [/QUOTE] You don't use the belt line to measure where the right elbow is. It's about the amount of external rotation and the location of the upper arm/elbow in relation to the torso. Just look at how much more Hogan has externally rotated his elbow/arm than Rory. Rory's upper right arm is more "up and back", matches his inclination, while Hogan's is "down and in front" of the torso.  [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/122985/] [/URL] Different view, much different position of the right arm and elbow. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/122984/] [/URL] We're talking about Hogan here, the king of the pitch elbow. Saying Hogan had a punch elbow is like saying Dustin Johnson's left wrist is dorsi flexed at 4. I'll reiterate what I said earlier, I don't want to go off on a tangent, it's off topic and not even a valid discussion.

[natureboy]

You don't use the belt line to measure where the right elbow is. It's about the amount of external rotation and the location of the upper arm/elbow in relation to the torso. Just look at how much more Hogan has externally rotated his elbow/arm than Rory. Rory's upper right arm is more "up and back", matches his inclination, while Hogan's is "down and in front" of the torso.

I thought part of a 'stuck' position you were describing also involved the relative heights of the elbows vs horizontal. Didn't know the precise definition for 'stuck'. Gotcha that it's about upper arm angle to the spine angle. Arm angle measurements should probably measure the upper R arm relative to the spine than the ground / plumb line then. Which spine angle is the important one for evaluating 'stuck'. Lower or thoracic?

Is Rory really that far off relative to other players who had long major-filled careers (even one with a lower and more advanced R elbow and more 'laid off' / flatter club position at L arm parallel and at delivery / shaft parallel)? He looks very close to Nicklaus at those same positions though with a deeper pelvic tilt & lower head position.

[mvmac]

I thought part of a 'stuck' position you were describing also involved the relative heights of the elbows vs horizontal. Didn't know the precise definition for 'stuck'.

"Stuck" has to do with the relationship of the arms to the pivot. When Tiger was younger he would get "stuck" because his lower body would outrace his arms, his arms would get "behind" his pivot.

Which spine angle is the important one for evaluating 'stuck'. Lower or thoracic?

Just the inclination of the torso but more importantly it's what I mentioned above along with the amount of external rotation of the trail arm/elbow.

Is Rory really that far off relative to other players who had long major-filled careers (even one with a lower and more advanced R elbow and more 'laid off' / flatter club position at L arm parallel and at delivery / shaft parallel)? He looks very close to Nicklaus at those same positions though with a deeper pelvic tilt & lower head position.

Rory would definitely be more on the punch elbow side of the spectrum.

Nicklaus would be punch elbow but the arms are more "in front" than Rory.

Can see how Rory has a little space between the right elbow and his torso at A5.5.

[natureboy]

"Stuck" has to do with the relationship of the arms to the pivot. When Tiger was younger he would get "stuck" because his lower body would outrace his arms, his arms would get "behind" his pivot.

Just the inclination of the torso but more importantly it's what I mentioned above along with the amount of external rotation of the trail arm/elbow.

Rory would definitely be more on the punch elbow side of the spectrum.

Nicklaus would be punch elbow but the arms are more "in front" than Rory.

Can see how Rory has a little space between the right elbow and his torso at A5.5.

I do see the little gap there. His R elbow looks roughly even with his hands while Nicklaus' R elbow looks like it's leading the hands.

Does shot intention matter in assessing whether an arm path is stuck? I think Rory's stock shot is a draw while Nicklaus' was a slight cut. Wouldn't that put Rory's path more outside the target line through the ball than Nicklaus? Compared to Nicklaus, it looks like Rory has much less secondary axis tilt formed at this point...really 'covering' the ball. At delivery Rory looks more tilted over the ball with his torso and his shoulders are more closed than Nicklaus so doesn't that create more room for the arms to swing under the shoulders, especially with an in to out path?

Big draw                                                                ~ Straight ball flight down camera line

Torso by definition goes from groin to shoulders. Looking down the line at almost any golfer will give one angle for lower to mid spine and a different one for upper thoracic. Which one is more important for that arm angle measurement?

[mvmac]

At delivery Rory looks more tilted over the ball with his torso and his shoulders are more closed than Nicklaus so doesn't that create more room for the arms to swing under the shoulders, especially with an in to out path?

It can but the direction Rory moves the hands/butt of the club from 4-5 is different than what Nicklaus does. Rory moves it straight down from the start which is something you don't normally see.

Torso by definition goes from groin to shoulders. Looking down the line at almost any golfer will give one angle for lower to mid spine and a different one for upper thoracic. Which one is more important for that arm angle measurement?

This is how I measure it.

[natureboy]

It can but the direction Rory moves the hands/butt of the club from 4-5 is different than what Nicklaus does. Rory moves it straight down from the start which is something you don't normally see.

This is how I measure it.

Thank you for the explanations / clarification.

It seems to my eye that the distance between his front shoulder and his hips (or how close the L shoulder still is to the ball) relative to Nicklaus at roughly the same position on the d/s gives Rory relatively more room to move the R arm through to the ball so maybe his lack of R elbow is currently relatively unimportant stuck-wise.

But his shoulders seem waaay delayed / separated from his hips relative to Nicklaus (who is in his 30's in that swing pic?). So is Iacas' point that as he ages he won't be able to maintain that sequence / separation and then his lagging elbow will become more of a problem, because there will be less room for his hands if he can't keep the left shoulder delayed and out over the ball?