Can you feel your body movements?

[ryunin]

So to continue a different thread but this is a very different issue so I am beginning a new thread, I was going to add more or much more hip rotation to my driver swing after watching a video showing my passive hips and core with a driver. I got some tips from guys here at the forum. Yesterday I went to the range and realized that alghough I can feel my body perfectly and do what I want to do with it, of course, not talking about subtle movements and details, but in general, without a ball, I could swing the driver with hips pushing forward on time and I was perfectly aware this was happening and I could hit the rubber tee the same way repeatedly and feeling relaxed and free. I could add swingspeed too. Then I add the ball to the tee and until the top I think everything is OK, but once I am about to go down, something turns off in my brain, I don't know what I am doing, I have no time to control my body and I hit the ball and I don't even know whether I rotated the hips or not. I tried over and over and had no idea, the ball of course, went everywhere. Without the ball, again, feeling completely in control and cool, relaxed and hips rotating forward on time. I was puzzled, how come I cannot do what I want to do once the ball is there. Then I spot a very experienced, successful teacher a few yards away, he was alone, so I went to talk to him. Please, how much do you charge, I am desperate, I can swing nice without the ball but once the ball etc. He said he would just check to see what was wrong. I wanted to show him the swing without the ball but he said no, show me the swing with the ball. For some reason, it felt better than before. He said that looks OK to me, not so bad, I said what about the hips, do I rotate the hips correctly? He said Don't worry about the hips. I was like what? I thought they were important. He said show me again. I hit the ball again and this time really badly. He said, I see, you are trying so hard to do something with your body, but you should forget hips and just swing. He said, obviously you are not able to feel the movements of your body, so ther is no point for you to try to do something specific, just narrow the stance a bit, straighten the knees a bit and just keep swinging. At this level you can't feel the body so just keep practicing.... I think he meant but didn't say it, I think he meant once you start to feel your body movements, we can do something about hips and such. I appreciate it that instead of offering expensive lessons he gave me this priceless tip and walked away asking for nothing in return, a great guy, we always greet each other at the range and when I ask a question he always answers quickly and simply.

Anyway, this don't worry about this or that, this is a completely new approach to me. Why does the ball, and it does, block something in one's brain? This used to happen to my irons a lot and still happens to a certain degree with a seven iron or longer. With the 5 wood I am sure whenever I let the swing happen without me interfering rationally, I can swing naturally, but when I decide to do something specific with it, I screw up the whole thing, it loses its original natural something. I hope I can just get used to hitting the ball with my driver so I can start to  feel the body and begin to work on some hips and stuff.

Anyway, once I stopped worrying  about my body during the driver swing, one thing definitely happened. I got better, higher trajectory and better contact. That's for starters.

[DaveP043]

The mind is a funny thing.  Here's my non-teacher take on this.  When you're practicing a new movement without a ball there, you can concentrate completely on the feeling of that new movement.  You don't care what happens to the ball because there's no ball.  When you put a ball there, your attention is split.  Part of you wants to pay attention to your body, and to the new movement.  Another part of your brain wants to hit the ball, and hit it well, and that part takes over on the downswing.  I believe that this is one big reason that many pros use drills to help you feel what the proper change feels like before you ever get to hit a ball with the changed swing.  If you could use the "changed" swing and hit balls, without caring where the balls go, that might work, but its nearly impossible for most of us to NOT care.

I hope @iacas or @mvmac will comment, they know a whole lot more about the learning process than I do.  They may tell you I'm completely wrong, in which case I'll be learning right alongside you.

[jcjim]

I learned a long time ago to not get into body parts...There is no end to it and none of it can be used to play a round of golf..

Hip are things that will work as fast a they need to.. by getting out of the way when they need to...for the swing that you make...Put your body into a position that may engage the hips sooner in the swing if you think you need it...

[ryunin]

It is interesting that the shorter the club, the more I feel I am actually in charge of the club. More consistent I am definitely. (no conning really - par three, 95 meters, I grab the PW and it is very very likely I swing frreely and straight and very close to or on the green. With a seven iron, if I need a 120 m shot, it will be 33 % chance that something nice happens, mostly the contact is not what I know I am able to do .. With a driver, the shot will go anywhere near the fairway or a bit further from the fairway, almost always and if it lands on the fairway, it is only because the wind made it go there and the fw was so wide...

So it seems we can learn to do something pretty consistently with a wedge, ( i mean full swing ) less so with a short iron, even less so with a mid iron and the worst case is the driver.  With the driver, it seems it is the extreme - the movement seems so complex to the brain - no matter if it is or not - that we cannot feel what we are doing unless we are really good.

Here's an article that explains why the brain has a problem with the ball whereas without the ball you can move your body much more to your actual liking and decision.

http://www.pgaprofessional.com/golf_instruction_articles/practice_swing.html#.VeidsiUrI_4

[ryunin]

The mind is a funny thing.  Here's my non-teacher take on this.  When you're practicing a new movement without a ball there, you can concentrate completely on the feeling of that new movement.  You don't care what happens to the ball because there's no ball.  When you put a ball there, your attention is split.  Part of you wants to pay attention to your body, and to the new movement.  Another part of your brain wants to hit the ball, and hit it well, and that part takes over on the downswing.  I believe that this is one big reason that many pros use drills to help you feel what the proper change feels like before you ever get to hit a ball with the changed swing.  If you could use the "changed" swing and hit balls, without caring where the balls go, that might work, but its nearly impossible for most of us to NOT care.

I hope @iacas or @mvmac will comment, they know a whole lot more about the learning process than I do.  They may tell you I'm completely wrong, in which case I'll be learning right alongside you.

Today I tried my driver  without a ball, with a foam ball and a ball. IT is exactly like you say - without it I feel relaxed, and I think I know what I am doing, even with my hips, with the foam ball, I feel already a bit restricted and less relaxed and not sure what I am doing during the swing. With a real ball, I feel like someone has tied me up and I can hardly move - exaggarating a lot, but something similar. I hope iacas can add something or anyone who has experience with the problem of getting used to hitting a ball. I used to have this problem being rigid and scared with my irons, now I don't feel the ball restricts me, just sometimes I restrict myself, when I am not relaxed enough. But for ages, months at least just the idea that the ball was there made me almost freak out and I topped the balls, I remember, I hope with the driver it will become a distant memory too, as soon as possible.

[metbid]

Maybe try this: After a few swings without the ball and feeling good, tee up a ball, but don't really look at it,.  Put some small object about one inch in front of the ball, or just pick a spot, then while focused on it, just  swing through that spot.  The object here is to swing THROUGH or OVER the spot, not trying to HIT it, just like during your practice swing, you are probably concentrating on a specific spot to swing the club over.

[zero]

I've been trying to move from paying attention to myself to "listening" to the club. My teacher tried to drill this into me. The club wants to swing on a natural path, not be forced or directed. Feel that path and the body will want to fall in line naturally. Moving the end-to-end swing from a series of corrections to a single, uninhibited swing. Hold the finish. Divorce yourself from the outcome.

[ryunin]

Maybe try this: After a few swings without the ball and feeling good, tee up a ball, but don't really look at it,.  Put some small object about one inch in front of the ball, or just pick a spot, then while focused on it, just  swing through that spot.  The object here is to swing THROUGH or OVER the spot, not trying to HIT it, just like during your practice swing, you are probably concentrating on a specific spot to swing the club over.

I tried this yesterday with the driver and almost broke my wrist, dug the clubhead into the ground.... so I am afraid to try it again. Closing my eyes, it was less severe. I just missed the ball.

[Odogesq]

One thing my golf pro told me that always stuck was that a practice swing is the same as a real swing, the only difference is that on the real swing you let the ball get in the way. In other words, you are never trying to hit the ball. Rather, the focus should be on making a good swing. Maybe just focus more on the swing instead of hitting the ball or making contact? Hope this helps!

[metbid]

I tried this yesterday with the driver and almost broke my wrist, dug the clubhead into the ground.... so I am afraid to try it again. Closing my eyes, it was less severe. I just missed the ball.

Maybe I should try to be a little clearer....swing OVER the spot, don't try to hit it.

[Patch]

I am pretty much on autopilot when I am on the golf course. I am not thinking much about my swing. It is what it is. I just step into my stance, and swing the club head up, then down into the ball 99.9% of the time. That .01% I might be trying to feel like I am "dragging", or "lagging"  the clubhead behind my hands when using an iron. I save all the swing feeling stuff, and/or body positions for the practice range. Just not enough time to think about much when swinging for a score.

[Keith White]

When our club pro recorded me I could not believe how much good movement I had when I swung well, it came naturally. The only thing I watch out for is leaving weight on the back foot in the downswing, this reminds me of my bad habit of swaying away from the ball with my upper body, so then I try to remain still with the hips and to pivot, not sway laterally.  That's my only body thought, too much and it gets too complex and does me more harm than good.