Religion vs. Atheism Thread

[Dave2512]

Please explain: 1) what my position is, and 2) what is weak about it. I have been trying to be patient and polite in this thread and have let probably 100 fallacies go without critiquing so as not to sound combative, but I can guarantee that if we had an unbiased logic professor come in and review this thread that he or she would very much disagree with you that my position is weak. That is like somebody coming on a 9/11 conspiracy board and telling someone that is merely asking for evidence for claims that his position is weak. Your priest friend, WHO IS A PRIEST, sees all the fallacies being set forth by theists on here. This will likely cement everyone's opinion of me as arrogant (even though I have not been arrogant; cognitive dissonance blinds people to the actual points I have been trying to make) but I will say that most of what I said is 100% agreed upon by elite theist debators and atheist debators alike. I listen to the greatest minds in the world on both side debate as a hobby. Nothing I said is even a question at these debates bc they are accepted as fact. Things such as the burden of proof, atheism is a faith, God of the gaps, etc. are all there for people to research. It is not subjective. Just because a majority says you are wrong does not make it so.

To be honest because I didn't follow whatever the threads were that spawned this one, your position from the OP was unclear. I thought you could be a bible beater. That is why my first response mentioned I know a lot of professionals. I was raised Catholic and ducked out early despite being an altar boy and heavily involved. I learned more about how I felt about religion from Sabbath albums than the private school I attended before my folks divorced. Trust me I have serious doubts. But the "why" questions you are posing are just bait and not of the tasty variety. If you are truly athiest you shouldn't care.

[Duff McGee]

To be honest because I didn't follow whatever the threads were that spawned this one, your position from the OP was unclear. I thought you could be a bible beater. That is why my first response mentioned I know a lot of professionals. I was raised Catholic and ducked out early despite being an altar boy and heavily involved. I learned more about how I felt about religion from Sabbath albums than the private school I attended before my folks divorced. Trust me I have serious doubts. But the "why" questions you are posing are just bait and not of the tasty variety. If you are truly athiest you shouldn't care.

I don't know if my posts are just turning invisible magically or if everyone just skips over whatever I say because they just assume I am like atheists they've met before or something, but I've addressed this multiple times. I didn't start the other thread but it sparked a religious debate between theists and atheists. I then started this thread so the other one wouldn't go off topic.

[Dave2512]

Invisible or lack substance same thing.

[westcyderydin]

I just want to ask this question.  Is atheism not a religion in and of itself?  It seems to me that there is a lot of trust in man's understanding above all else if science is the be all and end all.

Now if you want to say that we can't know for sure, that's one thing.  But if you want to say there is no god, I don't think you can prove that either.

[Duff McGee]

I just want to ask this question.  Is atheism not a religion in and of itself?  It seems to me that there is a lot of trust in man's understanding above all else if science is the be all and end all.  Now if you want to say that we can't know for sure, that's one thing.  But if you want to say there is no god, I don't think you can prove that either.

Have you read this entire thread? If not, you should at least give it a glance before asking questions. This topic has been beat more than the dead horse.

[westcyderydin]

Caught me....did not read thread.  Topic is interesting, though.

[Duff McGee]

Caught me....did not read thread.  Topic is interesting, though.

I know this will sound disingenuous but THANK GOD you just admitted you hadn't read the thread. I am just about to pull all my hair out from people staw man-ing "my position" and ignoring everything I've said so far. I'm actually starting to wonder if I'm being trolled.

[Dave2512]

Trolled in your own thread, not likely. It's your bed...

[Duff McGee]

Trolled in your own thread, not likely. It's your bed...

Is this your first time on the inter webs young man? Lol. Any thread can be trolled. I didn't start this thread for me. I did it because a lot of people engaged and I thought the religion/atheism stuff would be a popular topic of discussion. I wonder if that's my 20th time saying that or my 50th..... And even if I did create it because of some agenda (which isn't true), why would that be disagreeable? It's like the mere mention that someone is an atheist automatically raises the shackles and everyone pounces like soldiers in a battle.

[Dave2512]

The good old it's my ball and I'll take it home defense. Like I said you lack clarity. People understand what you are posting it simply isn't compelling. The only point you've proven is you don't have one and asking the faithful to define why they are is just dumb. Akin to asking a Mexican why they are Mexican or whatever. As a fellow non-believer even I am wondering what your point is. BTW I am not young. Wish I was but no.

[Duff McGee]

The good old it's my ball and I'll take it home defense. Like I said you lack clarity. People understand what you are posting it simply isn't compelling. The only point you've proven is you don't have one and asking the faithful to define why they are is just dumb. Akin to asking a Mexican why they are Mexican or whatever. As a fellow non-believer even I am wondering what your point is. BTW I am not young. Wish I was but no.

What isn't compelling? I haven't even ever stated a point to this thread! It's amazing to me how many people must go through life perceiving what they either want something to be or just expect it but all you've done is put words in my mouth for like 3 pages. Are you even talking to me or some atheist relative that hurt you in the past or something because what you are perceiving certainly isn't the reality if you go back through and legitimately read my posts. Stop giving me an agenda. Stop trying to infer what I mean by what I do. If I ask a question, I am asking a question. I'm not hiding behind the nearest rock ready to jump out and yell "gotcha!!"

[Dave2512]

What isn't compelling? I haven't even ever stated a point to this thread!

Exactly. You shouldn't be surprised people aren't responding In way that stimulates you. Your posts read like 010101010101010101010. You are saying something but not really saying something. And you are defensive. Even the posts from other atheists rile you up. Spit it out already because at this point you are getting repetitious.

[Shorty]

I just want to ask this question.  Is atheism not a religion in and of itself?  It seems to me that there is a lot of trust in man's understanding above all else if science is the be all and end all.

Now if you want to say that we can't know for sure, that's one thing.  But if you want to say there is no god, I don't think you can prove that either.

Oh for goodness sake. Who do you think has the onus on them to prove their point? Someone who bases their beliefs on observable truths which can be seen by all or stories from a 2000 year old book where things that we know to be impossible are possible.

The fact that God's non-existence can't be "proven" doesn't make His (note the respectful capitals) existence a possibility.

If science fails partially or wholly on any point, it is NEVER a point for those who believe in arks, virgin mothers and miracles.

If Sir Isaac Newton made a small mistake a couple of hundred years ago that means that the likelihood that snakes talk is heightened, does it?

Saying we can't know for sure doesn't strengthen the case of Christians who take the bible as a literal truth. It is not a two sided coin.

Just about every Christian here will angrily claim not to have been influenced or brainwashed as a child and will steadfastly claim to have done their own "research".

No one on this planet has ever seen anything that would support what fundamentalists claim to believe.

In the same way that there has never in the history of mankind EVER been anything that supports anything supernatural, be it water divining, Reiki, tarot reading or numerology, astrology etc.etc.

Yet these beliefs persist. The question is why. It's almost as if lack of proof/evidence makes the dogmatic even more steadfast in their attitudes.

No-one here will change anyone else's mind, but it may make them think. I will gladly accept God into my life if I can be shown a single thing that may support his existence. But this request is sidelined a s pedantic and trivial over and over again.

And some of you wonder why the atheists are going on like a broken record. All we are doing is asking why people who believe in God do so without ever having seen or experienced anything that would support such a belief.  The question is ALWAYS ignored, which is why it is repeated over and over.

[Pretzel]

I think that's kind of the point that's being made, that this thread has no clear point...

[Duff McGee]

Oh for goodness sake. Who do you think has the onus on them to prove their point? Someone who bases their beliefs on observable truths which can be seen by all or stories from a 2000 year old book where things that we know to be impossible are possible. The fact that God's non-existence can't be "proven" doesn't make His (note the respectful capitals) existence a possibility. If science fails partially or wholly on any point, it is NEVER a point for those who believe in arks, virgin mothers and miracles. If Sir Isaac Newton made a small mistake a couple of hundred years ago that means that the likelihood that snakes talk is heightened, does it?  Saying we can't know for sure doesn't strengthen the case of Christians who take the bible as a literal truth. It is not a two sided coin. Just about every Christian here will angrily claim not to have been influenced or brainwashed as a child and will steadfastly claim to have done their own "research". No one on this planet has ever seen anything that would support what fundamentalists claim to believe.  In the same way that there has never in the history of mankind EVER been anything that supports anything supernatural, be it water divining, Reiki, tarot reading or numerology, astrology etc.etc. Yet these beliefs persist. The question is why. It's almost as if lack of proof/evidence makes the dogmatic even more steadfast in their attitudes. No-one here will change anyone else's mind, but it may make them think. I will gladly accept God into my life if I can be shown a single thing that may support his existence. But this request is sidelined a s pedantic and trivial over and over again. And some of you wonder why the atheists are going on like a broken record. All we are doing is asking why people who believe in God do so without ever having seen or experienced anything that would support such a belief.  The question is ALWAYS ignored, which is why it is repeated over and over.

Shorty, I was just about to lose the last strand of hope for humanity.

[JazzFatCat]

http://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/newly-discovered-human-ancestor-likely-ritualistically-disposed-its-dead

Huh. I just watched a good PBS Nova show on this fossil find tonight. I hadn't heard of this fossil find before today.

The show gave a pretty good history of the human fossil record and how the theories and metaphors about human evolution have changed over the last 100 years.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/dawn-of-humanity.html

[Duff McGee]

Huh. I just watched a good PBS Nova show on this fossil find tonight. I hadn't heard of this fossil find before today. The show gave a pretty good history of the human fossil record and how the theories and metaphors about human evolution have changed over the last 100 years. [URL=http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/dawn-of-humanity.html]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/dawn-of-humanity.html[/URL]

Yeah it's really exciting.

[Righty to Lefty]

Oh for goodness sake. Who do you think has the onus on them to prove their point? Someone who bases their beliefs on observable truths which can be seen by all or stories from a 2000 year old book where things that we know to be impossible are possible.

The fact that God's non-existence can't be "proven" doesn't make His (note the respectful capitals) existence a possibility.

If science fails partially or wholly on any point, it is NEVER a point for those who believe in arks, virgin mothers and miracles.

If Sir Isaac Newton made a small mistake a couple of hundred years ago that means that the likelihood that snakes talk is heightened, does it?

Saying we can't know for sure doesn't strengthen the case of Christians who take the bible as a literal truth. It is not a two sided coin.

Just about every Christian here will angrily claim not to have been influenced or brainwashed as a child and will steadfastly claim to have done their own "research".

No one on this planet has ever seen anything that would support what fundamentalists claim to believe.

In the same way that there has never in the history of mankind EVER been anything that supports anything supernatural, be it water divining, Reiki, tarot reading or numerology, astrology etc.etc.

Yet these beliefs persist. The question is why. It's almost as if lack of proof/evidence makes the dogmatic even more steadfast in their attitudes.

No-one here will change anyone else's mind, but it may make them think. I will gladly accept God into my life if I can be shown a single thing that may support his existence. But this request is sidelined a s pedantic and trivial over and over again.

And some of you wonder why the atheists are going on like a broken record. All we are doing is asking why people who believe in God do so without ever having seen or experienced anything that would support such a belief.  The question is ALWAYS ignored, which is why it is repeated over and over.

I was waiting for someone to get to the point as I read through these posts. Religion was born out of an attempt to explain what couldn't explained and it was sufficient until societies began to advance scientifically and come up with answers to some tough questions.  If God truly existed then some of his actions on Earth simply could not be justified. If God truly existed and is all knowing then why would there be so much strife and turmoil in the world.  The slave and the slave master prayed to the same God??  But yet we are to love each other???

At first it was simply believe in God but now there are so many different sects that it is impossible to keep them together.  In my opinion being overly religious stunts the growth of our natural intrigue and desire to innovate.  There are billions of muslims on this Earth and how many have won a Pulitzer Prize.....1.  There are 15 million Jews on this Earth an they have won nearly 1/4 of them.  I see people pull over to the side of the road to pray here in Kuwait and I admire the discipline but on the other hand I feel sorry for them because they have no proof that what they are doing is of any merit other than what someone before them has told them.

Anyone who is successful will say they are blessed but no one who is unfortunate will say the same with the same conviction.

To me this is religion in a nutshell:

"My bed contains about 10 million dust mites. The Earth contains about 7 billion people. To my dust mites, I am an omnipotent, omnipresent being. I go away, sometimes for generations, then return. I created their home. I sustain them. I smash them. I drown some of them in the washing machine. I don't care what they think. I don't get angry if some of them don't like the way my skin flakes taste. The God of Christianity supposedly knows what all 7 billion of his dust mites are thinking, and he gets very angry if any of them don't love and respect him."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5dSyT50Cs8