Impact & Divots - Need to 'Hit Down'?

[natureboy]

After seeing a bunch of high-speed impact footage, I put those mental images together with a story Darren Clarke told about seeing Tiger practice where he talked about how he 'shaved' the grass off the ground on the range.

Maybe not news to most folks here, but possibly a new concept for beginners. Do we really need to actively / consciously 'hit down' for ball-turf contact and a proper divot?

Now I'm not saying that low point doesn't need to be in front of the ball, but rather if there need to be an effort to go through the ground.? My thinking is that the golf club is an inclined plane and even though the ball is low mass, the speed of the collision should create a substantial vector sending the club down through the tops of the grass to ground level. As long as contact with the ball is made with the sweet spot as the club is slightly descending (so low point is ahead of the ball), won't the club after contact just take the proper divot automatically?

I just had a great range session where I was conscious of this mental image for club level. When I started learning golf, I heeded the 'hit down' mantra and tended to take gouging pork chop divots. I've improved since then, but with the new thought I was hitting some 2-irons with that solid 'buttery' impact feel and the divot was long and thin and more 'bruising' than 'biting'.

Here are some high speed impact vids so you can see what I'm talking about (watch for how the club level drops when it contacts the ball). There is less effect with driver, which would be expected due to smaller inclined plane, but I still see it a bit.

Do you agree for stock shots (I get that in some special situations you might want to force a lower ball flight with an extra steep AoA like a 'stinger'). If not, why? <BTW where did the insert video button go?>

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dG9hb3_blo

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TA1s1oNpbk

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJAw7U9hLYg

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSdWqSuaNDs

 

Edited October 28, 2015 by natureboy

[alleztom]

I'll have a go - but I defer to those far more knowledgeable on the site than me

For me, the idea is not necessarily to be hitting down on the ball, but getting the weight forward, and maintaining a secondary axis tilt (for me related to Key #2 if we're using 5SK), this shifts the low point of the arc forward of the ball, meaning that the club is traveling (if you assume a 1D line) vertically downward. This means you don't have to 'hit down' but good swing mechanics will have the club moving downward 'naturally'. I like the idea of 'catching it on the downswing' rather than hitting down on the ball.

For me, trying to hit down caused an over the top move, and I have spent some time remedying this by shallowing out my angle of attack, but I understand that is particular to my golf swing and others will have other experiences/situations.

 

[iacas]

I'll probably have more to add later, but golfers should abandon the idea of "trying to hit down" or any related things like that. "Hitting down on the ball" leads to a lot of bad things.

We have known average AoA for PGA Tour players with various clubs. They're simply shallower than a lot of people think.

And I watched the one video, and there were a lot of off-center impacts there.

[mvmac]

After seeing a bunch of high-speed impact footage, I put those mental images together with a story Darren Clarke told about seeing Tiger practice where he talked about how he 'shaved' the grass off the ground on the range.

Maybe not news to most folks here, but possibly a new concept for beginners. Do we really need to actively / consciously 'hit down' for ball-turf contact and a proper divot?

Yeah it's not something most golfers need to consciously think about. Fix your priority piece, keep refining the swing and the right amount of "down" will happen.

[WillM]

I don't think about hitting down at all and I take huge divots with a really steep angle of attack. I think the average pro with a 7-iron is about -4.5 degrees... I am -6 to -7 degrees but I am not thinking about hitting down at all. I am just thinking about hitting the ball, or a single swing thought, etc.

The only exception is when I hit driver, then I am consciously trying to hit up on it. If I don't my AoA is -4 to -5... even with a little bit of spine tilt at set up (a la Rory) I still hit down on the ball between 0 and -1 degrees.

So, not something I think about. It just happens and will vary swing to swing for different people

Edited October 28, 2015 by WillM

[Oz Max]

I'll probably have more to add later, but golfers should abandon the idea of "trying to hit down" or any related things like that. "Hitting down on the ball" leads to a lot of bad things.

We have known average AoA for PGA Tour players with various clubs. They're simply shallower than a lot of people think.

And I watched the one video, and there were a lot of off-center impacts there.

That's good news for sweepers like me... I really struggle to take any divot, even with a wedge. If I'm purposefully thinking about hitting down, I quickly venture in shank territory. Mind you I hit my long irons and 3 wood really well as a result.

Still, I'm always amazed at those beautifully carved divots the pros take on their short irons, just a dream for me

[natureboy]

And I watched the one video, and there were a lot of off-center impacts there.

Yes there were some impacts that created vertical gear effect, but that deflects the vertical alignment of the shaft. I am talking about the impact deflecting the vertical level of the clubhead (down into the grass / ground). The one video where this was hardest to see was the flop, but I think that the club was already riding the bounce along the mat (you can see a depression / deformation in the mat moving forward with the clubhead).

Maybe a clarification of my original wording is thinking about a less deep (grass top or mid grass blade level) low point rather than clubhead level through the ball.

Edited October 28, 2015 by natureboy

[DrvFrShow]

If I come into the ball too steep bad things happen - like I go OTT an pull the shot. I normally don't take a divot unless the ground is very soft. I usually just scalp the grass in front of the ball when I make solid contact. I don't like to play a high shot.

[Jon Hoover]

Ya I'm all about picking the ball trying to take as little divot as possible. To me it just reduces the chances of a bad shot, if you try to hit down I think your more likely to chunk it on a bad shot and when you hit the ground first you loose a lot of power but when you pick your miss is more likely to be a little topped which can be bad but you will normally get close to the same distance as you were looking for unless your using a wedge.

[mvmac]

Yeah thinking of "hitting down" or "sweeping" the ball are typically not good swing thoughts. It'll only makes things more complicated and it doesn't address the root of the problem.

Also just because you don't take divots doesn't mean you're in the clear. You probably should take some turf, typically a byproduct of Keys 1-3. Someone will probably bring up Tom Watson now 

[iacas]

Yes there were some impacts that created vertical gear effect, but that deflects the vertical alignment of the shaft.

They can also deflect the toe down.

Maybe a clarification of my original wording is thinking about a less deep (grass top or mid grass blade level) low point rather than clubhead level through the ball.

I don't think that thinking about the kind of divot you want to make is necessarily a great swing thought, and I don't tell any of my students to feel like they're "hitting down" or anything similar.

[natureboy]

Also just because you don't take divots doesn't mean you're in the clear. You probably should take some turf, typically a byproduct of Keys 1-3. Someone will probably bring up Tom Watson now 

I can see a little down bias will protect against thin contact. But some of my best range and rounds contact has come when my divots are in front of the ball, but there is little to no ground dug (perhaps firmer ground conditions) while the grass is smooshed / squashed down to the surface at the roots and/or shaved at the roots. Granted others may experience better strikes taking a little turf.

They can also deflect the toe down.

If it's on the toe side, but that will also open the face post-impact. I don't see that as a consistent pattern, but I do consistently see the drop in horizontal level.

Edited October 29, 2015 by natureboy

[Heimat]

Isn't it just shifting your weight properly forward during the swing?

My pro had me hitting tees which i needed to hit until they jumped out high on the spot (like when you hit a proper Driver) before I was allowed to hit the ball.

For me it was all about weight shifting and maybe steeper angle of attack.

Hitting down can cause some pretty ugly turf hits before even getting to the ball, which leads me to overcompensate and start topping balls.

[iacas]

If it's on the toe side, but that will also open the face post-impact. I don't see that as a consistent pattern, but I do consistently see the drop in horizontal level.

The club still deflects farther down when it's a toe hit given the shaft is on the heel side and angled as it is angled. But… so what?

And I don't mean that in a snotty way, I just mean that now we're discussing the basic physics of an object hitting another object? To what end? I don't think that's what you want to be talking about.

So if you're talking about the size of divots, we've agreed for awhile: we call it "Tour Thin" and think that the little flat spot in the swing is going to be one of the next topics golf instructors talk about. Forward shaft lean (which relatively raises the CG of the clubhead) but a not-so-downward AoA.

http://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/32498-trackman-data-pga-tour-vs-lpga/?do=findComment&comment=417995

With a 7-iron, they average 4.3° downward AoA.

[natureboy]

Hitting down can cause some pretty ugly turf hits before even getting to the ball, which leads me to overcompensate and start topping balls.

I agree. A probably related compensation I've had with this as well was early extending because my subconscious sensed a need for more room for the club before it got to the ball.

The club still deflects farther down when it's a toe hit given the shaft is on the heel side and angled as it is angled. But… so what?

And I don't mean that in a snotty way, I just mean that now we're discussing the basic physics of an object hitting another object? To what end? I don't think that's what you want to be talking about.

So if you're talking about the size of divots, we've agreed for awhile: we call it "Tour Thin" and think that the little flat spot in the swing is going to be one of the next topics golf instructors talk about. Forward shaft lean (which relatively raises the CG of the clubhead) but a not-so-downward AoA.

http://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/32498-trackman-data-pga-tour-vs-lpga/?do=findComment&comment=417995

With a 7-iron, they average 4.3° downward AoA.

I am glad to hear and not surprised that is already part of your instruction approach. My reason for posting this thread is more for the possible benefit of fellow bogey golfers like me early on the journey who may have over-absorbed the ball-turf message or malformed the image of how a proper divot is taken.

Yes, the club does deflect down a bit as well as open on a toe-side hit. If the swing arc low point is low enough to pass through the ground, a toe-side hit is likely to make a deeper, uneven divot than otherwise, yes? Because of the inclined plane effect, I think the downward deflection happens a bit with every club regardless of location of impact, but may be minimal with driver and other low-loft clubs. I am just emphasizing that what I have seen in the slow motion impact videos as a common theme drop in horizontal club level that can create proper grass / turf contact post-impact relatively automatically.

Potentially golfers who started out like me absorbing or forming the wrong 'picture' of ball-turf contact may find the picture of the club deflecting into the ground / grass just due to club impact as a more useful picture to have regarding taking a divot. An arc bottom forward of the ball that sweeps through the grass or cuts the grass roots rather than 'digs' is different from the understanding I formed from the 'hit down dammit' types of recommendations.

Thin contact common to new players is not ideal either, but rather than 'hit down' it seems that advice to lower the bottom of your arc a bit or something like brush the grass roots a few inches in front of the ball is much more helpful a focal point for early swing practice. I started out as a sweeper and tended to hit thin frequently. I followed the advice line of 'hitting down' to decrease the thins, but I could have more simply amended rather than revamp my sweeper tendency and found more consistent good contact much earlier if I had this picture of impact. I also would have saved myself some wrist pain from overly steep AoA and heavy ground contact - especially off mats.

As a beginner, without a base of comparison or experience using swing radars, 4* might still sound like considerable amount of 'down' without a tangible picture to relate to what they see in front of them on the range. As an advanced player and instructor this may be something you take for granted, but I expect there are a lot of golfers up around my HCP who would not. The simple image of ball club interaction was far more useful to me in 'getting' what "Tour Thin" is about than AoA measurements. I just don't have the same frame of reference for those numbers you do.

Edited October 30, 2015 by natureboy