Zeroing Out Hurting Your Game?

[natureboy]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

Bubba really tends to fade the long clubs and draw the shorter ones, almost all the time.

I've seen Bubba working wedges with draw and fade largely depending on the slopes or favor a release toward a tucked pin. I would agree he tends to cut the driver.

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

And good players have shot cones, and shots rarely leave them. In my experience, they aim for their typical max curve, and if a shot comes off with a bit less, that's toward the safe side. I covered this, IIRC, in my Shot Cones thread.

If they are choosing a target based on their typical max curve rather than their expected stock curve haven't they shifted off the target in a non-optimal way for scoring (farther than average from the pin)? Or are you talking only about tee shots?

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, natureboy said:

No I think Trevino pretty much did too.

Trevino did not play a straight shot. We discussed this earlier. I saw him play on several occasions, and have heard him talk about his fade on several occasions as well. I've talked with instructors who were on the Tour back with Lee, and players. He played a fade.

13 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I expect that 'must either draw or fade' is an old saw like 'putt for dough' that has been repeated and adopted enough to become essentially golf gospel.

As I said above, you don't know me very well if you think I'm just going to accept some thing passed down as gospel.

13 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I expect that by the time any player is seen to have a bit of talent, they will receive coaching, instruction, and/or castigation that indoctrinates them to the 'right way'.

Like Bubba? Or Lee, who played a fade?

You're reaching. Speculating. Making stuff up.

13 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Trevino had an open stance so he played a stock 'left to right fade', when Trevino's definition of his stock 'fade' was very different.

You're relying on, seemingly, one interview for this? I addressed this thoroughly earlier. Lee played a fade. So did Nicklaus.

13 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I'm not saying stock shapes are bad, just that there may not be any inherent advantage to a shape versus the size of the shot dispersion pattern. If you see straight shots go with that and groove your swing / tighten your pattern on the target. If you see curves like Bubba go with that and tighten your pattern on the target.

Nobody's debating the theory.

2 minutes ago, natureboy said:

If they are choosing a target based on their typical max curve rather than their expected stock curve haven't they shifted off the target in a non-optimal way for scoring (farther than average from the pin)? Or are you talking only about tee shots?

You get that their max curve might be 10 yards with a 7-iron or something, right?

[saevel25]

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

If they are choosing a target based on their typical max curve rather than their expected stock curve haven't they shifted off the target in a non-optimal way for scoring (farther than average from the pin)? Or are you talking only about tee shots?

Not when the pin is tucked 3 paces from the left edge and missing it 6 yards left of target line puts you in the water, bunker, or short sided. 

It's a bit more complicated than your theory suggest. More goes into shot selection than trying to average around the pin. 

[natureboy]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

Trevino did not play a straight shot. We discussed this earlier. I saw him play on several occasions, and have heard him talk about his fade on several occasions as well. I've talked with instructors who were on the Tour back with Lee, and players. He played a fade.

I'm not saying he didn't hit actual fades even off his 'make the ball go to center field' targeting. That would be expected with random errors around a 'straight' / 'block' targeting intention, so would some draws. I also expect that he also intentionally used curve strategically depending on doglegs, fairway slope, green slope, and tucked pins. So identifying what his base 'stock' intention was might be hard to discern just like with Bryson. I trust his own words on his intentions.

One's worldview can shape what you see and IMO, it's at work with this rather prevalent bias against a swing / shot pattern built around a straight intention / targeting being workable.

See his description of his revamped pro 'stock shot' at 3:10. What he called 'his fade' sounds pretty much like 'not hooking'. He just used terminology that everyone was familiar with, probably so people wouldn't bug him to change / tell him it was a bad idea when he told them he intended to hit 'right up the middle'.

 

[saevel25]

9 minutes ago, natureboy said:

See his description of his revamped pro 'stock shot' at 3:10. What he called 'his fade' sounds pretty much like 'not hooking'. He just used terminology that everyone was familiar with, probably so people wouldn't bug him to change / tell him it was a bad idea when he told them he intended to hit 'right up the middle'.

No one is repudiating your theory. Can a straight shot have a tighter dispersion than one which curves, sure it might be possible. 

Everything in me as a golfer would hate it. I would hate the uncertainty. I like to see the ball curve right to left for my irons. I can live with a fade with a driver since I play the ball forward in my stance and hit up on the ball. 

There is something about being comfortable with the golf shot that gives you extra confidence. That is something that I don't think a straight shot can give you in certain situations. 

It would horrific to play in the wind if you didn't know the curve. What if you have a left to right wind and you need to hit a draw to keep it from push the ball right? Yet you are not comfortable because your stock shot is one where you don't know the curve. So what if you hit a fade instead of a draw on this time?

Golf isn't all ideal situations where you can just say a tighter dispersion is the best situation. 

[natureboy]

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

You get that their max curve might be 10 yards with a 7-iron or something, right?

On the green, 30' (10 yards) is a significant difference vs 15' (5 yards) in expected score.

 

@saevel25 I get that hazards and pin locations are part of the target selection optimization problem. You are trying to optimize the positioning of a heat map of your shots to maximize your score (get more closer to the pin on average while minimizing shots that end up in costly locations. Players with variation around a straight intention have heat maps / shot dispersion patterns too.

If your home course favors a particular shape that's the one to play primarily as I see it. If you play a lot of different courses, variance around a 'straight' intention is likely to balance out because of the relatively balanced / random fairway shapes, cants, and green slopes.

Wentworth match play vs Player Nicklaus was having a bad driving day hitting rough on both sides of the course. The size of his normal swing error with driver had increased on the day for some reason and he hit big pulls and wicked slices. Shape in and of itself won't save you when the swing is off.

Edited April 12, 2016 by natureboy

[iacas]

33 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I'm not saying he didn't hit actual fades even off his 'make the ball go to center field' targeting. That would be expected with random errors around a 'straight' / 'block' targeting intention, so would some draws.

You don't seem to be reading what I'm writing. Lee Trevino faded nearly every ball he hit. Even his short irons faded a bit. He didn't "fade" balls only because he was trying to hit them straight and half faded and half drew. He faded nearly every ball. A fade was his stock shot. I've seen it with my own eyes, and I've heard it from those who played with him. And instructors who were on Tour at the time, too.

Lee played a fade.

33 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I also expect that he also intentionally used curve strategically depending on doglegs, fairway slope, green slope, and tucked pins. So identifying what his base 'stock' intention was might be hard to discern just like with Bryson. I trust his own words on his intentions.

I don't. And he - like most every great player - rarely changed the shape of his shots. He simply hit fades whether the pin was left, right, or center.

33 minutes ago, natureboy said:

See his description of his revamped pro 'stock shot' at 3:10. What he called 'his fade' sounds pretty much like 'not hooking'. He just used terminology that everyone was familiar with, probably so people wouldn't bug him to change / tell him it was a bad idea when he told them he intended to hit 'right up the middle'.

Lee's all over the place in that video (the minute or two after 3:10 that I watched), and you're seemingly placing far, far too much reliance on what Lee says. He also talks about how he learned to fade the ball after watching Ben Hogan. He doesn't say he hit the ball straight. He says the only way he could fade it is to aim left, swing right, and block it toward center. The ball curved left-to-right. Not 20+ yards, but it faded.

He learned how to "cut it." That's a fade.

You're wrong on this, @natureboy. Lee played a fade.

Hogan played a fade, too. Nicklaus, too. You admit that, and Hogan and Nicklaus were more successful and arguably then better players than Trevino.

17 minutes ago, natureboy said:

On the green, 30' (10 yards) is a significant difference vs 15' (5 yards) in expected score.

In only quoting a tiny portion of what I wrote, you also seem to have missed the point of that. Again, it's not like pros are curving the ball 30 yards. So if they aim 30 feet left (maybe right is water) and fade it only six yards instead of 10 yards, they have a 12' putt. Hardly a "terrible" shot.

13 minutes ago, natureboy said:

If your home course favors a particular shape that's the one to play primarily as I see it. If you play a lot of different courses, variance around a 'straight' intention is likely to balance out because of the relatively balanced / random fairway shapes, cants, and green slopes.

Courses rarely favor a particular shape unless your shape is "huge." For a course to favor a certain shape, it would have to have fairways and greens all slanting toward one side or the other or have holes that only tend to bend in one direction.

Again, @natureboy, you seem to act like the curves we're talking about are huge sweeping curves that don't fit. Nicklaus won at Augusta six times despite playing a fade. Hogan won there too. Their shots "fit" a course that's reputed to favor a righty draw off the tee.

13 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Wentworth match play vs Player Nicklaus was having a bad driving day hitting rough on both sides of the course. The size of his normal swing error with driver had increased on the day for some reason and he hit big pulls and wicked slices. Shape in and of itself won't save you when the swing is off.

You're arguing against straw men now.

[natureboy]

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

Lee's all over the place in that video (the minute or two after 3:10 that I watched), and you're seemingly placing far, far too much reliance on what Lee says.

You're right. I should trust you implicitly and not the guy swinging his own club and describing his own swing intentions and experience rebuilding his swing.

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

He also talks about how he learned to fade the ball after watching Ben Hogan.

He explicitly states he couldn't start it left of target back to the right like Hogan did and worked out hitting / targeting around a 'block' to 'centerfield'. He didn't say start in left field back to center or start in center and work to right field.

39 minutes ago, iacas said:

He doesn't say he hit the ball straight. He says the only way he could fade it is to aim left, swing right, and block it toward center.

His 'aiming' is talking about his stance alignment. He clearly did not expect his shot to end up where his feet were pointed.

What is the face and path relationship on a classic blocked shot? What is the expected shot shape?

I'm okay with trusting the videos I've seen where he describes his stock shot / target as 'about dead straight', and equating his own 'Trevino fade' to a 'block', even if it disagrees with the experience of every single pro and instructor who saw him play.

A player who works around a 'straight' target pattern should have a rough expectation of 50% balls left of intended target and 50% balls right of target, when they aren't intentionally shaping one. You can't necessarily deduce their shot intention / expectation from watching a couple of shots or without knowing their intended target where they expect the ball to end up.

[Jakester23]

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

He explicitly states he couldn't start it left of target back to the right like Hogan did and worked out hitting / targeting around a 'block' to 'centerfield'. He didn't say start in left field back to center or start in center and work to right field.

 

Where the ball starts doesn't determine the shape.  You can hit a pull, push, or straight fade. Same goes for a draw.

[iacas]

The Lee stuff is venturing off topic, and you're being rude about it now, @natureboy, so I'm done. It's in a spoiler.

Spoiler

25 minutes ago, natureboy said:

You're right. I should trust you implicitly and not the guy swinging his own club and describing his own swing intentions and experience rebuilding his swing.

I said nothing of the sort, and you're being a jerk.

In that very video you cited, Lee himself says he learned to hit a cut. That's a shot that curves to the right. Lee didn't play a straight ball. He said he "hit the ball to center" - not that it flew straight to center. A ball that starts 10 yards left of center and curves to dead center is "hit to center" particularly when you're "aiming left and swinging right."

25 minutes ago, natureboy said:

He explicitly states he couldn't start it left of target back to the right like Hogan did and worked out hitting / targeting around a 'block' to 'centerfield'. He didn't say start in left field back to center or start in center and work to right field.

He said that watching Hogan inspired him to go learn to hit a cut. In your video.

Again… a ten-yard fade would still start at center field. Again, pros don't play a big curve, but they play a consistent curve. Lee's consistent shape was a fade. If the target was at dead center, he started it a little bit to the left-field side of center and curved it to center.

25 minutes ago, natureboy said:

His 'aiming' is talking about his stance alignment. He clearly did not expect his shot to end up where his feet were pointed.

I never said he did.

25 minutes ago, natureboy said:

What is the face and path relationship on a classic blocked shot? What is the expected shot shape?

Lee Trevino played a fade. A "push-fade." A "block-fade." Call it what you want; his shot curved to the right.

25 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I'm okay with trusting the videos I've seen where he describes his stock shot / target as 'about dead straight', and equating his own 'Trevino fade' to a 'block', even if it disagrees with the experience of every single pro and instructor who saw him play.

That doesn't seem wise to me. Trevino himself says in the video he learned to hit a cut.

But even if was true that Lee played a straight shot (it's not), you've got one pretty good player who has now done this. Hardly bolstering your case.

25 minutes ago, natureboy said:

A player who works around a 'straight' target pattern should have a rough expectation of 50% balls left of intended target and 50% balls right of target, when they aren't intentionally shaping one. You can't necessarily deduce their shot intention / expectation from watching a couple of shots or without knowing their intended target where they expect the ball to end up.

I'm not doing any such thing.

---

I'm done talking about Lee Trevino, and for the most part, so are you… it's a wild goose chase that has little or nothing to do with the topic. He played a shape; he didn't "zero it out" either.

Nobody disagrees with the theory that you could be just as accurate hitting the ball straight. But the game of golf is not played in theory.

[b101]

Back to the OP - @mvmac, really useful post and something I always forget from time to time. Not much fun trying to do this when you're attempting to change parts of your swing relating to path, but a good reminder, nevertheless!