Game improvement iron ????

[Moose9018]

I am recently started playing golf again after a five year hiatus, after a few rounds, my buddy convinced me to take a trip to golf smith and look at a new driver, I took in my current driver TM R7 and hit it compared to a few companies latest and greatest.  Not only did a gain some distance but more importantly, I gained a lot of consistency (meaning my miss hits where not near as bad).  So I after two fitting sessions at different locations, I picked up a TM M2 and a 3W to match.  So with the gains I made there I am wondering what can be done in other areas.  I was looking at irons (more out of curiosity then I am ready to buy) and noticed the lofts are a about 3 degrees stronger on new iron sets in the typiclal cavity back iron.  For example I am currently am playing Muzuno MX-23, my PW is 46, in the Titalist 716 AP1 the PW is 43, that is closer to my current 9 iron.  So here is my question, it seams to me manufactures have just decreased loft in clubs to help people "think" they are hitting further in reality they just hitting a stronger club, so as someone who doesn't have an issue with distance (current 6 iron 190-195) but I wouldn't mind getting the increased forgiveness of a modern iron is it worth it for me to go with a club like 716 AP1 then add a 47 wedge, keep my 52, 56, 60 and then ditch the long iron off the top that would be doubled in my hybrid, or go with a club more like a 716 AP2 give up some forgiveness in exchange for lofts that more fit my club speed? 

[IndianaDundee]

There is no standards for iron lofts.  I have measured lofts on my old irons, my son's used irons, my new irons and a few oddball clubs I have picked up thru the years.  Just PWs range from 50, 48, 45, 42 degrees.  So my 42 degree PW from one set hits longer than the 44 degree 9 iron from my son's set.   Now days irons may be more forgiving but the lofts are so strong you need more wedges to fill the gaps.  Then at the other end your 3 iron is as hard to hit as an old 1 iron.  Even your 4 and 5 irons may be hard to hit.  But you can't just add 3,4,5 hybrids to the bag because a 5 hybrid hits as long as a 4 iron.  Then you can't find a 47 degree wedge as most gap wedges are 50 degree or more.  So now you need to carry 16 clubs to cover the distances that you used to have.

So am I saying you shouldn't buy new clubs?  No, just cautioning you that it may end up costing you a lot of time and money to figure out what clubs fill the distances.

[Liko81]

18 hours ago, Moose9018 said:

I am recently started playing golf again after a five year hiatus, after a few rounds, my buddy convinced me to take a trip to golf smith and look at a new driver, I took in my current driver TM R7 and hit it compared to a few companies latest and greatest.  Not only did a gain some distance but more importantly, I gained a lot of consistency (meaning my miss hits where not near as bad).  So I after two fitting sessions at different locations, I picked up a TM M2 and a 3W to match.  So with the gains I made there I am wondering what can be done in other areas.  I was looking at irons (more out of curiosity then I am ready to buy) and noticed the lofts are a about 3 degrees stronger on new iron sets in the typiclal cavity back iron.  For example I am currently am playing Muzuno MX-23, my PW is 46, in the Titalist 716 AP1 the PW is 43, that is closer to my current 9 iron.  So here is my question, it seams to me manufactures have just decreased loft in clubs to help people "think" they are hitting further in reality they just hitting a stronger club, so as someone who doesn't have an issue with distance (current 6 iron 190-195) but I wouldn't mind getting the increased forgiveness of a modern iron is it worth it for me to go with a club like 716 AP1 then add a 47 wedge, keep my 52, 56, 60 and then ditch the long iron off the top that would be doubled in my hybrid, or go with a club more like a 716 AP2 give up some forgiveness in exchange for lofts that more fit my club speed? 

Regarding the delofting, I also kind of consider the delofting to be cheating; however, after getting fitted and talking to one of the brand reps at a recent Titleist demo day, it's a little more complex. The short version is that the game improvement irons, with cast construction, higher perimeter weighting and lower center of gravity, all contribute to a higher launch angle given the same loft angle. Launch angle is important because it helps determine descent angle, which in turn is a major contributing factor to rollout. Regardless of how long your 9-iron is, you want your 9-iron shots to stick within a few yards of where you land them. With a 5-iron, you usually want a little more rollout than that. So, to get the same launch angle given the changes to COG within the clubhead, the face must be delofted (which suits high-cappers just fine).

However, the rep did concede that in addition to the delofting necessary to compensate for weight, there was some additional delofting going on so that a high-capper's average shot gives about the same distance as a better player using more lofted, forged irons. You almost certainly don't need this extra help, but unfortunately if you need the extra forgiveness of the perimeter-weighted clubhead, you just have to deal. You generally do so by buying a 4-GW matched set instead of a 3-PW, and just treat each club as if it were the next lower number. As for overlap, I personally overlap the 4i with a 4h anyway, and despite TM's marketing of hybrids as "rescue" clubs, I tend to use the hybrid on the fairway and thin rough when I need a 190-200yd shot, while my 4i is a utility hammer for punching out from under trees.

As far as whether to switch, that's really a decision you'll have to come to by yourself after testing both clubs side by side. I tested the current year's AP1s and the forged AP2s side by side this past weekend, and I can say that distance-wise there's actually not much in it when you hit each one solid; it's all down to feel and forgiveness. The AP1s will feel harder on every shot, and you'll feel the hit even when your strike is perfect, but as long as you put clubface on ball, you'll end up with a playable shot. The AP2s (similar in design theory and target market to your MX-23s) have more difference between on and off the sweet spot; when you hit a good centered shot, it's like the ball's not even there, but the AP2s will punish you more on both feel and distance for thin or toed shots.

One more thing; if you feel your shots are inconsistent, instead of looking at the clubhead, look at the shaft. You're striping a 6-iron 190 yards; that's likely well into "extra stiff" territory, and if you're playing with anything more flexible it's likely contributing to your issues. I've been told my swing speeds (~97mph driver) are still in "regular" range and to stick with that; however, this fitter took one look at what I was doing in terms of ball launch speed, and handed me a 7-iron with a stiff shaft. Instead of losing distance, my shots got much more consistent, because the stiffer shaft was flexing less through my swing so the clubhead was where my hands were pointing at impact. So, look at the whole club as well as your swing when diagnosing issues.

[Moose9018]

Liko thanks for the info, that makes since...If I do decided to pull the trigger on a new clubs, I will defentely be heading to a pro fitter before buying.  Also thanks for pointing out the shaft issue.  When I was fit for my driver, my swing speed was 108 adv, which I guess is right on the edge of stiff vs extra stiff.  When they put an extra stiff shaft in, my distance was not really affected but I got a lot more consistent.  Then they started playing with different shafts to affect my spin and launch numbers. So bottom line if I do decided to go for a new set, I will for sure be going to a pro fitter and looking at the whole picture from 3W down. 

[allenc]

21 hours ago, Moose9018 said:

For example I am currently am playing Muzuno MX-23, my PW is 46, in the Titalist 716 AP1 the PW is 43, that is closer to my current 9 iron.  So here is my question, it seams to me manufactures have just decreased loft in clubs to help people "think" they are hitting further in reality they just hitting a stronger club, so as someone who doesn't have an issue with distance (current 6 iron 190-195) but I wouldn't mind getting the increased forgiveness of a modern iron is it worth it for me to go with a club like 716 AP1 then add a 47 wedge, keep my 52, 56, 60 and then ditch the long iron off the top that would be doubled in my hybrid, or go with a club more like a 716 AP2 give up some forgiveness in exchange for lofts that more fit my club speed? 

The 716 Ap1 is actually an interesting case for a GI iron.  You noticed the loft of the club labeled "P" is very strong and it is in fact stronger than just about any set's pitching wedge out there.  But the club labeled "5" is only 25* which is weaker than most GI irons sets' 5 iron and possibly closer to your current 5 iron.

What the AP1s give you is clubs that are spaced more closely together than other GI sets -- there is a whole other club within the same loft range.  So contrary to your concern above, it appears the AP1s actually more suit a fast swing speed player.  For example while your gaps might be 15 yards with the 5* gaps of other GI irons, they may only be 12 yards with the AP1s 3* and 4* gaps.  A slower swing player would want a set with larger loft gaps to attain large enough yardage gaps.

And yes you would no doubt want the 47* "W" if you didn't want to use a low lofted specialty wedge.

[WUTiger]

The original loft bumps came when Ping introduced the perimeter-weighted irons. The Ping engineers found that the p-w irons really launched the ball higher than blades of the era; but, the launch boost made the Ping 7i (for example) a few yards shorter than competitors. So, Ping strengthened the irons lofts 2 degrees so as not to lose yardage.

The marketing wizards got wind of this - let's have a 7i that goes five yards longer than our rivals, - and the delofting arms race was on.

One thing I've suspected about stronger lofts for SGI irons - do the stronger lofts counteract the tendency of many high HDCP players to flip the ball? Flipping involves allowing the clubhead to pass the hands pre-impact, which adds loft - and subtracts distance - from the shot.

Any engineers, clubsmiths or teaching pros care to comment on this?