Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
Note: This thread is 2934 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Posted

I currently play Callaway Apex CF16 irons.  What I have noticed through Arccos is that the bulk of my misses on approach shots are short.  On the courses I play on being above the hole is a bad thing so I do try and stay below the hole which adds to this miss.   I have easy access to a launch monitor and a thing to note on the Apex irons for me is that they are low spinning.  I am seeing low spin numbers on a monitor so perfect lie, dry club and ball, no grass between the club and the ball.  On the course the numbers are probably lower.  Typical 7 iron spin is 4200 rpm.  The manufacturers do this for a reason, it boosts distance.  My fear is that if the spin drops too much you lose distance.  I don't have a problem sticking on greens I hit a high ball and the greens I play on tend to be soft.

This got me thinking (which is usually not a good thing) that the lack of spin could be hurting my distance control.  I had a discussion with my fitter and he sent me a Ping I200 7 iron to try.  It was very interesting.  With the Ping I lose 8 yards but pick up some spin (1,000 rpm) but the consistency and accuracy seemed to go up quite a bit in all categories.  The fitter is really good.  The test club was set to the same swing weight with the same shaft.  The Ping felt really good on centered strikes, really good.

I just don't know if I am chasing shadows here.  I think there is something to the spin theory.  The alternate course of action is to pull more club on every approach.  That flies in the face of logic because I pull clubs based on Arccos distances.  Does anyone have any experience with this scenario?  

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
15 minutes ago, inthecup said:

I currently play Callaway Apex CF16 irons.  What I have noticed through Arccos is that the bulk of my misses on approach shots are short.  On the courses I play on being above the hole is a bad thing so I do try and stay below the hole which adds to this miss.   I have easy access to a launch monitor and a thing to note on the Apex irons for me is that they are low spinning.  I am seeing low spin numbers on a monitor so perfect lie, dry club and ball, no grass between the club and the ball.  On the course the numbers are probably lower.  Typical 7 iron spin is 4200 rpm.  The manufacturers do this for a reason, it boosts distance.  My fear is that if the spin drops too much you lose distance.  I don't have a problem sticking on greens I hit a high ball and the greens I play on tend to be soft.

This got me thinking (which is usually not a good thing) that the lack of spin could be hurting my distance control.  I had a discussion with my fitter and he sent me a Ping I200 7 iron to try.  It was very interesting.  With the Ping I lose 8 yards but pick up some spin (1,000 rpm) but the consistency and accuracy seemed to go up quite a bit in all categories.  The fitter is really good.  The test club was set to the same swing weight with the same shaft.  The Ping felt really good on centered strikes, really good.

I just don't know if I am chasing shadows here.  I think there is something to the spin theory.  The alternate course of action is to pull more club on every approach.  That flies in the face of logic because I pull clubs based on Arccos distances.  Does anyone have any experience with this scenario?  

Not 100% sure on this but 7i with 4200 rpm sounds too low. The higher spinning 7i (guessing 5200) rpm is still low, but at least reasonable.

If an irons spins too low, it usually goes farther and not shorter. The extra spin and height is helping you stop on a green better at the cost of "distance". For example, if you hit your 7i 180 yards with 4200 rpm of spin and an apex of 20 yards, that's not as good as hitting it 165 yards with more than 6000rpm and an apex of 30 yards.

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
Just now, Lihu said:

Not 100% sure on this but 7i with 4200 rpm sounds too low. The higher spinning 7i (guessing 5200) rpm is still low, but at least reasonable.

If an irons spins too low, it usually goes farther and not shorter. The extra spin and height is helping you stop on a green better at the cost of "distance". For example, if you hit your 7i 180 yards with 4200 rpm of spin and an apex of 20 yards, that's not as good as hitting it 165 yards with more than 6000rpm and an apex of 30 yards.

Lower spin helps to a point.  If it drops too low the ball falls from the sky.

The clubs that help with distance which is most game improvement clubs are  all generate lower spin.  They also have a low center of gravity to increase launch and height.   The peak height of both clubs was around 33 yards. 

  • Informative 1
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
2 minutes ago, inthecup said:

Lower spin helps to a point.  If it drops too low the ball falls from the sky.

The clubs that help with distance which is most game improvement clubs are  all generate lower spin.  They also have a low center of gravity to increase launch and height.   The peak height of both clubs was around 33 yards. 

Not sure then, I'm basically going by what I was told is optimal for my 7i (Ping i20).

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

:ping:  :tmade:  :callaway:   :gamegolf:  :titleist:

TM White Smoke Big Fontana; Pro-V1
TM Rac 60 TT WS, MD2 56
Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Cool article Lihu!  Inthecup u are correct that you need spinbto keep the ball in the air or it just drops out of the sky.  I ran into that at a driver fitting.  My 1700-1900 rpm of spin did me no favors.  My launch angle was fine...all other numbers were fine.  I just needed the right shaft to give me more spin.  It increased both my carry distance and overall distance.  I was amazed.  I now realize people chase low spin like it's the holy grail and its hurting a lot of them.

U might need a more flexible shaft, which is what I went to but it has to do with my smooth transition as well.

You said u have a good fitter so you're on the right track....and your assumption is correct as well.  I read for a spin rule of thumb it's the club number x 1000...so a 7 iron would be 7000 rpm, 8 iron 8000 rpm etc...

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

I am blessed with the resources to take a chance on new clubs.  I ordered up the Ping I200 5-PW with the same shafts as my Apex irons.  They will be set up by my fitter who is one of the best so it will be an interesting test to see if they achieve my goal.  In the testing I have done the dispersion was much better and the distance was shorter.  I am not the longest player but at this point accuracy is more important to me.  I will have the whole winter to hit balls into a net on a monitor and make some judgement about consistency and accuracy.  I also have a Mid December trip down south to play so I will get some on course experience to go with the monitor data.

I was really making progress last year.  I am playing off a solid 12 index and I think I can go lower.  I am hoping to visit single digits, never been there before.

What could possibly go wrong!  

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

The Apex non pro and the Ping i200 are different classes of irons too.  Apex is more of a distance iron and the I200 is more of a non-hard core  player's type iron.

They will play differently for you.  The Apex is more like the G series Pings.

With your handicap you should love the I200!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 1:43 PM, inthecup said:

The manufacturers do this for a reason, it boosts distance.  My fear is that if the spin drops too much you lose distance

Depends on the iron. If they supplement this with higher launch you will see longer distance.

On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 1:43 PM, inthecup said:

This got me thinking (which is usually not a good thing) that the lack of spin could be hurting my distance control.  I had a discussion with my fitter and he sent me a Ping I200 7 iron to try.  It was very interesting.  With the Ping I lose 8 yards but pick up some spin (1,000 rpm) but the consistency and accuracy seemed to go up quite a bit in all categories

The Ping clubs might be weaker loft as well. I wouldn't compare your irons number to number. Typically you want to make sure you are getting good yardage gaps between your irons. Specifically at the top end.

I prefer to play the least amount of game improvement I am comfortable with.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 2934 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Day 1: 2025.12.26 Worked on LH position on grip, trying to keep fingers closer to perpendicular to the club. Feels awkward but change is meant to.
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.