CalBoomer

Here's my suggestion for the simplest answer. His swing plane is too vertical. The driver needs to be hit with a flatter swing plane.

If you believe that all golf shots should be hit with some degree of acceleration, then the longer your backstroke, the faster the putter will be moving when it strikes the ball, and the farther the ball will go. A pendulum stroke allows the acceleration to increase more gradually and in a more controlled manner than just "jabbing" at the ball. Trying to control putter speed with various strengths of jabs is an exercise in futility, and you will see very few pros use such a technique. Ultimately, "feel" is just applied physics whether you are aware of it or not.

If you ever watch a pro trying to hook an iron around an obstacle, you will invariably see them use a very flat swing plane. It is a very reliable way to produce a hook. So maybe your iron swing plane is just a little too flat. Try making it just a bit more vertical.

Such a nice diagram. If you hit the ball earlier in an in-out swing, the club face will be slightly open at contact resulting in a straight push. If the ball is more forward, the club may be moving inward of the target line. If the club face is slightly closed, a pull or pull hook can result. If the club face is square but moving out-in at that point, varying degrees of slice or pull slice are likely to result. So, if you want a straight push, I would recommend moving the ball back slightly with a slightly open stance. Which, by the way, is the Trevino method for hitting a fade, which is really mostly a straight shot with minimal left-right movement.

Here is one very simple thought to address your problems with the longer clubs. Many beginning golfers try to hit all their shots with the same swing plane, one which is relatively vertical. This works fine for the shorter irons only. In general, the longer the iron, the flatter your swing plane should be for consistent results.

I don't slide, sway, or swing. I try to concentrate on just rotating my torso back down. Whatever else happens, happens.

This makes about as much sense as someone saying that they don't carry an eight iron because they can do anything with a seven iron. Most 56 wedges have increased bounce because they are (usually) a sand wedge. Now there are times when you don't want that extra bounce and might prefer to use the 60 wedge which (usually) comes with less bounce. Most pros carry the 60 or an equivalent wedge because there are things that only that club can do in expert hands. My basic opinion is that folks who don't carry the higher wedge just have not bothered to put the time and practice in that is necessary to use it properly.

Really spot on for me.

No beginner should even remotely consider learning to do something that not many pros can do consistently, let alone very good amateurs. I do not think it would be worth the effort for 99.999% of golfers.

Wow, can I ever identify with this post. When I say I try to stay behind the ball hitting driver, as opposed to irons, I mean head behind the ball, slight spinal tilt away from the target, right shoulder slightly down--which I think is exactly what you see in the second set of pictures. With regard to hitting the red or blue ball with an in-out swing and slightly rising club face, that is why I use the open stance in the Trevino method of hitting a push fade. The ball is contacted before the club face gets to close. I have been working on all of this for the past year. Now I can drive the ball 230-250 reasonably accurately with only a 3/4 backswing, which at 67 puts me ahead of most guys 10-15 years younger than I am. But this methodology does not work for my irons. I pretty much use S&T with my head directly over the ball. I get much more consistent contact. The planes of my two swings are reasonably similar single-plane, but the two swings are different. In a former life, I could never hit driver and irons well at the same time. Realizing that, at least for me, I had to have two different swings has made me a much better golfer. If I could just improve my short game, I just may be able to get my handicap to single digits before I turn 70.

Yeah, Trevino, all 5ft 7in of him, does not get the respect he deserves. With no formal coaching, he won 6 majors (2 US Opens, 2 Opens, and 2 PGAs), which is one less than Mickelson and Els combined. And in 4 of those victories, the runner-up was none other than big hitter Jack Nicklaus, so he wasn't beating chumps. The fade was his bread and butter shot to such an extent that he never won a Masters, which requires being able to hit a consistent draw off the tee. Like another small man, name of Hogan, he won because of the incredible consistency of his ball flight. So his advise is worth paying attention to.

Here's my two cents. The slice is caused by your swinging over the top and hitting the ball outside-in. You appear to be very vertical at contact, almost but not quite a reverse pivot, causing your club face to very vertical and perhaps hitting the ball with a slightly descending blow, hence the low ball flight. But you do have good swing speed. For the driver you need to get more behind the ball, with your spine slightly tilted away from the target and right shoulder lower, and you have to swing inside-out. Good luck.

Copy and paste the following link to one of the threads in this forum (5th post down): http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/43528/hitting-a-fade-with-a-varyingly-closed-stance In that thread, I posted an old clip from Golf magazine written by Lee Trevino which is the best description of the push fade (or power fade) I have ever seen. Iacas does not like long quotes but he let that one stand. It has been very helpful to my game, especially my driving. But I only use stack and tilt principles for my irons, when I am trying to make contact with a slightly descending blow. I try to hit my driver with a very slight upswing at contact and try to stay behind the ball--all of which is impossible with stack and tilt methodology. With regard to your question about aiming a push fade, it all depends on "what" you are aiming. As recommended by Trevino, my stance line is way open left, my shoulder line is less open left, and my club face is open to both, but almost square to the target. So my open club face is aimed square to the target, everything else variably to the left. It may sound weird but it is extremely reliable for producing a very straight ball or one that fades very slightly right.

From going through my swing in slow motion in front of mirrors. The left hand position varies with the strength of the grip. I hit my driver with a very weak grip to fade the ball and help prevent hooking. So, at contact, the back of my left left hand is no more than 10 degrees up from vertical. I use a stronger grip with my irons, and would estimate my left hand is up 35-45 degrees from vertical.

Guess I'm having trouble communicating. Now, I do aim (stance line) way left, shoulder line a little less left, and hit a push fade. Just as Trevino suggests. It works really well for me.

Mine points down the target line.

Like most of the posts above, I prefer the laser rangefinder (Bushnell) to my old GPS. No annual fees or changing the programmed courses. And I can use it at the driving range to better assess distances there.

Sorry to be late in responding to this, but I have been doing a bit of skiing. Yes, I did mean what I said. I used to play with a closed stance, and my ball flight ranged from draw to bad hook. So I decided to try to develop a fade to control/prevent the hook. I began by just opening up the club face and aiming left, but that wasn't a very reliable method. Using the Trevino method was a revelation, and my driving is much more consistent, in terms of ball flight and accuracy. I am 67 and cannot muster more than a 3/4 backswing. Now that I use this method consistently, I am typically driving about 230-250 with an occasional non-wind aided 270. I now outdrive almost everybody my age and a lot of people younger. And my back doesn't bother me at all.

I don't go in for much of the technicalities discussed in this post. The person your swing reminds me of is Matt Kuchar, just a little flat and perfect single plane. Very nice. Not at all surprised that it produces a consistent draw.

I use the full length windows in my cathedral ceiling family room at night. With back lighting, they make great mirrors, and I have room to make full swings. It did wonders for my game.

Sorry, but that is just the way it is. The optimal driver swing is different from the optimal iron swing, just as putting and chipping swings are different. The advice you received was exactly correct. Just keep practicing. You can't hit a driver with iron swing, nor can you hit an iron with a driver swing.

Same for me. Fairway wood off very short fairway grass.

I just don't get the folks who are trumpeting "just wait 'til Tiger gets back on his game." Exactly how long do we wait? He has had nothing but time to practice for the last year. And what does he have to show for it? In 2008, he won at Torrey Pines with a bad knee. Now he is healthy with no big distractions--and playing like a journeyman. Right now he is the poster boy for how much of a mental game golf is. Tiger just no longer has the same mental make-up he had when he was a class above everybody else. Now he's just another member of the upper tier, and thus far moving down rather than up. I personally think the likelihood of his winning 4 or 5 more majors is very slim. I'll be surprised if he wins one or two more.

I have tried to hit a push fade with both a closed stance and an open stance. For me, I can hit it much more reliably with an open stance. And I think there is a good reason for that. When you hit the ball with a closed stance, the ball is contacted somewhat later in the swing, when the club face is more likely to be closing, making a reliable push hard to achieve. On the other hand, with an open stance, the ball is contacted somewhat earlier in the swing, when the club face is more likely to be slightly open, which facilitates a reliable push. Just my $.02.

Although it's possible, it doesn't make much sense to me to try hitting a pull fade from a closed stance. Hitting a push fade from an open stance is easier and probably more reliable for most people. This is Lee Trevino's method for fading the ball (From Golf Magazine, 1979): YOU CAN LEARN TO HIT MY FADE Here is a simple method that will help you develop an accurate left-to-right shot By LEE TREVINO “There are probably as many different ways to draw and fade the ball, as there are tacos in Mexico I'm sure you've heard about many of them. Strong and weak grips. Opened and closed clubfaces. Inside and outside takeaways. Early and late releases. Light and tight grip pressures. But most of these methods are unreliable, particularly when you try to mix them up in your golf game. My theory is that you should have one favorite shot, either a fade or a draw, and use it almost all the time. I favor the fade. But not an ordinary fade, with an open clubface or weak grip or outside to inside swing. Those types are too fickle. One mistake in timing, one miscalculation and the fade you expected can become a blue dart into the left trees. No, I have my own technique, unlike anything you've heard of before. It has worked for me, and it can work for you. Even if you are a slicer, my technique will help you control your slice, and as a bonus, help you hit a draw, as well. I almost always "push" the ball. That's the easy way to think of my fade, as a push/fade to the target. Very little can go wrong: Your wrists can't roll over and surprise you with a snap hook. You don't have to worry about releasing early or late, because, in effect, you don't release at all. And you don't need to fret about a "double cross" aiming left and hitting farther left by mistake. With my method, the ball drifts to the right every time. To begin, make sure your shoulders, hips and feet line up to the left of your intended target with the shoulders slightly less open than the hips and feet. Aim the clubface at the target, open to your body alignment. Play the ball about one to two inches inside your left heel and start the club back along the target line. This will put the club on an inside path in relation to your body. On the forward swing, shift your hips laterally toward the target and swing the club down on the target line, holding your release and keeping the clubhead on the target line well after impact. You should have the feeling of swinging very much inside-to-outside and in fact, you are. "Inside out?" you might ask. "Doesn't that cause a draw?" Yes, it does, but only when your swing is inside out in relation to your target line. This swing is inside out in relation to the body alignment, but straight back to straight through in relation to the target line (see illustration). You won't draw the ball with this swing. If anything, you will contact the ball after the club has swung down and back to, the inside on the forward swing, thus putting a slight left to right spin on the ball . So you have two big pluses here: First, you have an inside to outside attack in relation to your body. This is much more powerful than the outside-to inside swings that many amateurs use to fade the ball. Second, you have the club moving down the target line, producing either a straight ball or slight fade. You can't beat that combination. Here's a trick that might help you understand this a little better. After you set up, imagine that there are three golf balls in front of the one you're about to hit (see illustration). For the fade, you want to hit through all four balls. This will force your right shoulder down rather than around on the downswing, with your arms extending toward the target on the follow through. Keep in mind that the right shoulder doesn't dip. That would cause fat shots. Instead, the shoulder simply swivels underneath the chin. As a result, you will hold your release, keep the club moving down the target line, and push the ball to the hole, with very little sidespin. I have, however, encountered one "problem" among people who have tried this method. They say to me, "Lee, when I swing your way, I hit the ball way to the right. I just tell them, "Aim farther left.” Don't open your stance more; just shift your entire orientation to the left. In other words, rather than aim the clubface down the fairway or at the pin, aim it at an intermediate target more to the left and shift your body alignment farther to the left as well. There's no rule that says you have to aim down the middle. Line up for the trees on the left and push it down the fairway. It's easy, when you know for sure that you can hit the push/fade. The beauty of the balls in a line image is that you can use it to draw the ball, too. For the right to left shot, line up your body parallel to the target line and aim your clubface at an intermediate target to the right, to allow for the draw. Then, simply think of picking off the first ball in line, the real ball, without touching the three imaginary ones. This brings the right shoulder and club up quickly in the follow through, and whenever the club and shoulder move up, they go counterclockwise as well, which closes the clubface. Result: a draw. Try my method. You'll see how easy it is to fade and draw the ball. You'll always know where the ball is going. And in golf, there's no substitute for accuracy. I can vouch for that. A key to hitting consistent, solid fades is to keep the right shoulder moving down under the chin through impact.” Golf Mag, 12/79