My Swing (Nosevi)

[Nosevi]

It's been suggested on my 'main' thread that I should update this thread so I shot a quick vid earlier today to show where I am. I've been concentrating a lot on short game over the past couple of months, knowing that I'm going to be concentrating on long game as the weather closes in and looking at some pictures there are a few areas where I have back slid slightly so it's definitely time to get stuck back in with work on the full swing.

I find it useful to look at where I am in comparison to a pro but always think if you're going to do this you need to pick a pro who's built similarly to you and if possible swings in a similar way. Monty and I are reasonably 'chunky' but his 'armsy' fade is nothing like my body dominant turn through the ball. Equally comparing myself to a thin, supple guy is never going to work. For me the 'best fit' is probably Francesco Molinari - we're built similarly and we both hit the ball with a fairly similar body turn through the ball. He's also a fantastic striker of the golf ball so a good 'role model' to try to emulate.

Here's some pictures from today along side Francesco - a couple of glaringly obvious things I need to work on but any comments over and above that are welcome. Standby for quite a few pictures!  

Not really liking the gap between my body and right elbow here:

Obviously Francesco has his ball position further forward but my hands being a tad further back in the above shot results in them being a shade further back in relation to the ball below:

Bit earlier on my right toe here, not sure of the significance though ?

 

And some DTL

Think I could rotate my shoulders a bit more here and take my arms more out of the move away?

Obviously Francesco has a longer iron in his hands so you'd expect the plance to be shallower but by here I'm getting a bit steep. I think it relates back to my right elbow coming away from my body (if I moved it down from here it'd shallow out the plane) so maybe need to go back to the headcover drill. Any other suggestions welcome.

This is where I should have my right elbow against my side but face on shows I don't. 

Pretty much recovered it all by here....

 

And the ball flight from my shot. No idea of Francesco's but my money is on pretty straight  

So that's how it stands right now. Some similarities to Molinari but some differences I still need to work on. With the weather closing in there'll be plenty of time for that over the next few months.

As I said before, I have some ideas of where I need to put some work in but comments/advice always welcome.

[iacas]

Can I just re-post the video I made for you before?

 Still most of the same things you need to work on. Still a flip in there, still not turning at a fast enough rate on the backswing, still got slow arms coming down, etc.

[mvmac]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

Can I just re-post the video I made for you before?

Yeah looks like there's been some regression @Nosevi. Recommend you take a look at those posts/videos from a few months ago.

[Nosevi]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

Can I just re-post the video I made for you before?

 Still most of the same things you need to work on. Still a flip in there, still not turning at a fast enough rate on the backswing, still got slow arms coming down, etc.

Fair on some points   I think I've got to grips with a better spine tilt (pretty much identical to Francesco's) and reduced my overswing to keep things a little more under control but I can see I need to turn my shoulders more at the beginning of the backswing - let my pivot move the club away more?

Regarding a 'flip' it's usually better than it was (trajectory is lower so it must be) but it's still there a tad. Clearly my ball position is further back than Francesco's so for the same dynamic loft to be delivered with the same club path and with the same club my hands will obviously be further back but I'm not quite there yet. Do you think by moving my right elbow in (perhaps using the headcover drill @mvmac suggested?) it will put my hands further forward pre-impact and so further forward at impact?

Slow arms coming down - again do you think it's more that right elbow position rather than the actual speed? What I'm getting at is I don't quite get what I'm trying to achieve with coming down 'faster'. I don't see Francesco coming down with faster arms, just with that right elbow tucked in when he does. If I got that elbow in I'd clearly increase my lag a bit but obviously right now we're about the same in every stage up until impact........ but would just having my hands a tad further forward 'fix' that?

What I'm getting at is we're in a results based buisiness  What's the 'result' I'm after with coming down faster? Obviously my ball flight is pretty staight (most of the time) and numbers from this 8 iron shot were carry 156yards, trajectory 20 degrees, backspin a shade under 7,000rpm. This is a set of my launch data to give an idea. What am I trying to achieve by arms going down 'faster'? (Ignore club speed and smash, my kit doesn't measure it so no idea why they 'guess' it).

I hope you don't mind me asking but if you don't ask, you don't learn. I like to know why I'm trying to do something, not just what I'm trying to do. What result am I after in terms of ball flight? 

Edited November 15, 2015 by Nosevi

[Nosevi]

1 hour ago, mvmac said:

Yeah looks like there's been some regression @Nosevi. Recommend you take a look at those posts/videos from a few months ago.

Hi Mike, was typing over you there  

Yep, there are some things I really need to look at and I think that right elbow is key. Getting it in will keep the club from going steep so I won't have to recover it and it'll get everything more in line into impact........ at least I think it will. Lots of that head cover drill to come!

Did you understand what I posted above about a "results based buisiness"? Obviously this shot was arrow straight - one of the advantages of using the sim to record swings is that you get the ball flight on there. Do you agree that it's the result that counts? The picture can tell us something but at the end of the day it's the result that is important. I understand the need for my right elbow to come down and in more to prevent me from getting tapped and either block or hook the ball though  

Just to reiterate, I'm not in any way 'debating' the advice. I'm asking, if possible, for a 'why' interms of ball flight ie result when it comes to arms coming down faster  

[Abu3baid]

18 minutes ago, Nosevi said:

Do you agree that it's the result that counts? The picture can tell us something but at the end of the day it's the result that is important.

I'm sure Mike will answer, but I agree it is the result that counts... However, don't you want to have more of that result?  The only reason people would want to change the picture is so their bad shot to good shot differential in terms of dispersion and distance is minimized..  Heck, I hit some beautiful 290 yard drives with a perfect push draw, but then I also hit the 270 yard push that ends up in the woods.. this is obviously because of the swing flaws that I have which causes this big differential.. and this is where changing the picture will help me..

[Nosevi]

2 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

I'm sure Mike will answer, but I agree it is the result that counts... However, don't you want to have more of that result?  The only reason people would want to change the picture is so their bad shot to good shot differential in terms of dispersion and distance is minimized..  Heck, I hit some beautiful 290 yard drives with a perfect push draw, but then I also hit the 270 yard push that ends up in the woods.. this is obviously because of the swing flaws that I have which causes this big differential.. and this is where changing the picture will help me..

Hi there. Absolutely agree which is exactly why I want to get that right elbow in - I can see a reason for it in terms of eliminating a bad shot. I just can't see moving my arms down faster will gain me control or eliminate bad shots. Maybe it will, I'm just asking why  

[mvmac]

10 hours ago, Nosevi said:

Did you understand what I posted above about a "results based buisiness"? Obviously this shot was arrow straight - one of the advantages of using the sim to record swings is that you get the ball flight on there. Do you agree that it's the result that counts? The picture can tell us something but at the end of the day it's the result that is important. I understand the need for my right elbow to come down and in more to prevent me from getting tapped and either block or hook the ball though  

If you want to keep improving, lowering the handicap from a 5 to a 4, to a 3, etc, there's some pieces you need to keep working on. It's going to be tough to achieve your goals with your right elbow above your left at A5.

This is your swing thread and I was commenting on your swing 

[Nosevi]

58 minutes ago, mvmac said:

If you want to keep improving, lowering the handicap from a 5 to a 4, to a 3, etc, there's some pieces you need to keep working on. It's going to be tough to achieve your goals with your right elbow above your left at A5.

This is your swing thread and I was commenting on your swing 

Copied and understood  

I do think that right elbow position is a key for me. Get it down and in and the club is more on plane, it'll create more lag, my hands will be further forward at impact improving my smash factor ........ It just seems like that right elbow position being down will put me in a much better position - it's definitely something I need to work on. 

I suppose my apparent reticence from time to time (maybe more than apparent) is that I do tend to get pretty good results, albeit I conceed that it's DESPITE some aspects of my swing and not because of them. I 'compensate' pretty well. My 5 handicap is somewhat 'historical' and a result of the way our slightly daft system works, under the US system it'd be about scratch right now based on my scoring average.

I guess I really need to know clearly in my own mind exactly why I'm working on any given area. If I know the 'why' I'll commit to the change. But it has to be something that will have a tangible effect on the end result ie the ball flight. I don't want to look good swinging a golf club, I want to score low - it's the only thing that matters  

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Nosevi said:

Copied and understood  

I do think that right elbow position is a key for me. Get it down and in and the club is more on plane, it'll create more lag, my hands will be further forward at impact improving my smash factor ........ It just seems like that right elbow position being down will put me in a much better position - it's definitely something I need to work on. 

I suppose my apparent reticence from time to time (maybe more than apparent) is that I do tend to get pretty good results, albeit I conceed that it's DESPITE some aspects of my swing and not because of them. I 'compensate' pretty well. My 5 handicap is somewhat 'historical' and a result of the way our slightly daft system works, under the US system it'd be about scratch right now based on my scoring average.

I guess I really need to know clearly in my own mind exactly why I'm working on any given area. If I know the 'why' I'll commit to the change. But it has to be something that will have a tangible effect on the end result ie the ball flight. I don't want to look good swinging a golf club, I want to score low - it's the only thing that matters  

Speaking bluntly… this reads a bit like a cop-out.

I believe I covered the "why" several times. At the end of the day, the "why" is ultimately "so you can be better." You don't see high-level players - even the medium-high level player you're trying to match - with their hips that closed at impact and the handle pointing at their right nostril at impact (even with a back ball position).

By "several times" I mean in the threads here, but mainly in the video I took great care and time in making.

[Nosevi]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

Speaking bluntly… this reads a bit like a cop-out.

I believe I covered the "why" several times. At the end of the day, the "why" is ultimately "so you can be better." You don't see high-level players - even the medium-high level player you're trying to match - with their hips that closed at impact and the handle pointing at their right nostril at impact (even with a back ball position).

By "several times" I mean in the threads here, but mainly in the video I took great care and time in making.

And speaking bluntly (as that seems to be the best way  ) it's far from a cop out. I'm a fraction over 1 year into what will be a minimum of a 5 year attempt to see how good I can get at this game. I happen to have the time, enjoy the game and like to try to be the best I can be at things I throw myself into. I'm not claiming to be 'there' I'm claiming to be trying to improve.

Comments like "handle pointing at their right nostil" are 'unhelpful'. For a start it's not close to true (red line is where it is, green line is where you're saying it is. You're saying my hands go backwards though impact?!?!).

But secondly how is a comment like that supposed to help a 'student'? 

Players like Molinari don't have their hips as open as some. 2 pictures from impact we're both square (compared to our toe line). 1 picture from impact we're both slightly open (compared to our toe line). At impact we're both further open (compared to........ you get the idea  ). Yes I need to do more.

I'm a long way from where I want to be but I feel, generally speaking, I'm making some progress. I'm maintaining spine tilt, I'm keeping my head at least verticle, my hands are a bit further forward (more work here admittedly). It's progress. Is it the end picture? No. How do I know I'm making progress with grooving my swing? Kit numbers the shots so you can see they are consecutive.

That's how I know - results. And I appreciate the advice you've given so far in helping that.

I merely asked for clarity in why I need my arms to come down faster. And no, I don't think the 'why' for that has been mentioned anywhere. Saying "To get better" is round about as useful as when your parents say "Because I said so" (as we're speaking bluntly). 18 years (on and off) coaching Rugby, 14 years as an air traffic instructor, good enough at that to be selected to be an Officer Training Instructor at our academy, and not once in all of that have I shot someone down for asking for clarification on a point. In fact when training Junior Officers they were told that if the troops need clarification of the 'why' it's down to them to explain it in a way the troops understand.

I'm a long way from where I want to be. I was sharing a bit of what I was doing on here because some of your members seemed genuinely interested. I wanted to post video and actual data rather than just say stuff like "Striking it well at the moment, pretty tight dispersion." At times I do wonder whether it's worth it.

In short, no, asking "Why do my arms need to come down faster?" is not a cop out. It's asking for clarification on what may be a minor or may be a major point. I have no idea, I don't know why you're saying I need to do it.

All speaking bluntly, you understand  

[iacas]

Pete, please do both of us the favor of toning down what I'll just call "the drama" in your response. Comparing my free advice to you doing your job is several orders of magnitude beyond what was deserved. You didnt even ask for a clarification about where and how I'd answered the "why" question. If you don't want my free help, fine by me.

The "cop out" part was in regards to your "if I'm reticent it's because I get good results" part. It sounded to me like you were giving yourself an excuse to not work on improving the things I identified and explained in the nearly 30-minute video I gave you before. Many of those things are STILL what you should work to improve.

Did I exaggerate by saying "your right nostril"? A bit… though less than you probably realize if you weren't cheating with a back ball position. That doesn't warrant you coming back with "how does THAT help a student?" You're not paying me, and you're adding your own tone of voice and taking these things the way you want to hear them.

On November 16, 2015 at 2:06:41 AM, Nosevi said:

But secondly how is a comment like that supposed to help a 'student'?

By pointing out that he still has a ways to go, and that he still needs to focus on changing THAT picture. And, Pete, man up a little bit. If "your shaft points at your right nostril at impact" is the worst and least helpful thing you hear today… it's probably a pretty good day.

On November 16, 2015 at 2:06:41 AM, Nosevi said:

Players like Molinari don't have their hips as open as some. 2 pictures from impact we're both square (compared to our toe line). 1 picture from impact we're both slightly open (compared to our toe line). At impact we're both further open (compared to........ you get the idea  ). Yes I need to do more.

Quite a bit more. Molinari is on the low end of "open at impact" measurements, and you're 15-20° shy of his numbers.

The first six folks I pulled up in Analyzr…

Your lower body stalls because your arms need time to catch up and stop from kicking out and around. Your arms are slow, so your lower body has to stall and give them time to catch up and not swing too far left. The right elbow plays a role in there too.

On November 16, 2015 at 2:06:41 AM, Nosevi said:

That's how I know - results. And I appreciate the advice you've given so far in helping that.

You still have a long ways to go. Yes, you're doing better. But you've ignored this thread until I recently prompted you not to, and I haven't seen the progress made that you're capable of making in the time you've had.

If you want to feel good about yourself, fine. But that doesn't mean a little kick in the ass isn't well deserved (or helpful).

On November 16, 2015 at 2:06:41 AM, Nosevi said:

I merely asked for clarity in why I need my arms to come down faster. And no, I don't think the 'why' for that has been mentioned anywhere.

I doubt I gave you a nearly 30-minute video and didn't explain the "why" at all. But just in case…

Very quickly: your arms need to come down faster so that you aren't flipping at impact, and so that you can open up at the proper rate, so that you can not only control the clubface better but achieve better strikes/more solid impact. I can't recall seeing very many golfers at the level you want to achieve with a flip and being nearly square to the target with their hips and torso at impact.

On November 16, 2015 at 2:06:41 AM, Nosevi said:

18 years (on and off) coaching Rugby, 14 years as an air traffic instructor, good enough at that to be selected to be an Officer Training Instructor at our academy, and not once in all of that have I shot someone down for asking for clarification on a point.

Uhhhh… okay. Because these are similar circumstances…?

On November 16, 2015 at 2:06:41 AM, Nosevi said:

In short, no, asking "Why do my arms need to come down faster?" is not a cop out. It's asking for clarification on what may be a minor or may be a major point. I have no idea, I don't know why you're saying I need to do it.

That's not the part that sounded like a cop-out. I thought @mvmac had already answered your question(s), and you seemed (to me) to be saying "yeah but I'm pretty good right now, so I don't know if I really have to change much…".

Good luck.

[Nosevi]

Thanks for responding, particularly in saying why you think my arms need to come down faster. I think I'll leave any response at that. All the best. 

[Phil McGleno]

4 hours ago, Nosevi said:

Thanks for responding, particularly in saying why you think my arms need to come down faster. I think I'll leave any response at that. All the best. 

Guy spends a lot of time helping you, you bash him, and then that is all you got?

Wow Pete. Good on ya mate.

I don't know about other people here but man if I was Erik I'd be pretty damn pissed at you right now. Talk about ungrateful. Maybe you just want sycophants.

[Nosevi]

3 hours ago, Phil McGleno said:

Guy spends a lot of time helping you, you bash him, and then that is all you got?

Wow Pete. Good on ya mate.

I don't know about other people here but man if I was Erik I'd be pretty damn pissed at you right now. Talk about ungrateful. Maybe you just want sycophants.

Phil, you are well wide of the mark. I didn't want to chat further about what Erik had said because I didn't want to further prolong the discussion and I certainly didn't want to upset him further. "Bash him"? "Want sycophants"? Do be sensible.

All of this started simply because I asked for a reason for doing something in my swing. The response I got was a mild 'slating' of my efforts. Also wasn't particularly true which is why I bit back. I don't really get the "cheating with a back ball position" reference - it's a short iron and the ball is a shade forward of centre - it's a still photo, it's not going anywhere, feel free to check, Phil. But why go on debating the point?

Erik said he was giving me a kick up the ass, getting me 'riled' and trying to get me to work harder. Ok, lets just say it worked. It really did  

He basically said I wasn't doing well enough and said my swing was still pretty rubbish (unless you feel flipping the club entirely backwards at impact isn't rubbish?), I bit back saying that wasn't constructive...... it was a bit of a tiff. I run an internet forum with hundreds of active members and people have tiffs all the time, funnily enough they all get on far better face to face. The idea that you can never have a heated discussion on an internet forum isn't something I'm used to, sorry.

Truth is I've gone from somehow getting round the course doing this (no idea how I did):

To this shot yesterday:

Yes I do think that's progress. Yes I still need to do more. 

Do I just want "sycophants"? Of course not, totally ridiculous thing to say, Phil. Do I want to be "bashed" (to use your turn of phrase) in my efforts and told things like the club is pointing at my right nostril at impact when it's not, implying no progress and not be allowed to bite back, debate the point, say "come on, it's nowhere close"? Even tell the person who says it (whoever says it) I feel it's unhelpful? No. Someone can say it, I just want the freedom to say "No it's not." and show still photos showing that without cries of "All you want is sycophants!"

Erik told me to "man up" with the criticism he leveled at me and I'm sure me getting riled (miffed if you guys don't use that word) at him is water off a duck's back, I'm sure it bothers him very little. As I say, it may well have been his intention all along (ie to give me a kick up the ass). But for the record, I'm sorry if I upset you, Erik. Our personalities clash via a keyboard, no doubt, strangely I don't think they would face to face. I do appreciate the help you've given, think I've said that numerous times and I meant it.

Now I think the best thing to do is just let it lie. Cheers all.

[iacas]

I'll send you a PM, but no, his comments weren't "well wide of the mark." You're right that I didn't care all that much - I care far, far more about my kiddo breaking 50 yesterday for the first time - but you're wide of the mark yourself in how your response came across.

I'm also not a fan of this he said/he said crap in threads, so…

Publicly, given how important the swing is to improving and shooting lower scores, and the fact that this thread is about technique while your "project" thread is about the project as a whole, I do encourage you to use this thread more often. It's a sister thread to the project, but it shouldn't go several months without seeing an update. Even Dan would post video of his swing and tell people what he was working on specifically.

[tdiii]

I've enjoyed reading your threads, @Nosevi, so am hopeful you stick with this unruly bunch.

I have a question for @iacas. . . It seems to a swing theory idiot like myself that there is conflicting advice.  On the one hand, you indicate that Nosevi's hips are closed at impact.  It looks that way to me, as well.  On the other hand, you indicate that he needs faster arms.  I would think that faster arms would only exacerbate the closed hips issue, would it not? 

Not trying to argue, just trying to understand.

Edited November 18, 2015 by tdiii

[mvmac]

37 minutes ago, tdiii said:

I would think that faster arms would only exacerbate the closed hips issue, would it not? 

I think @iacas posted this earlier but the rate @Nosevi's arm move at are too slow. Leads him to stalling the pivot in order for the arms to catch up (and also leads to a flip).