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Posted
Just watched the movie "The Greatest Game Ever Played" the other night. Thought it was pretty good. My question is for those who know a lot of history of golf. Was there a time when a golfer was not allowed to mark his ball on the green? The part where he tried to chip his ball over Harry Vardon's and into the hole got me thinking about that. Were there even greens around the time of the 1913 US Open? Also loved how they used to tee the ball, with a pile of dirt! Sweet!!
The only thing a golfer needs is more daylight. -Ben Hogan

 

Posted
Sweet! You learn something new everyday!!
The only thing a golfer needs is more daylight. -Ben Hogan

 

Posted
yeah i wouldn't want to try chipping on greens these days. but thats some awesome stuff. I like that movie, it was pretty good.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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Posted
Recommend reading the book. Lots of other things you will learn about the period as it related to golf .... like Woodrow Wilson discreetly walking nine holes every day for his health, prior to his stroke.
  • Upvote 1

Posted
If I'm not mistaken, though, the stymie rule only applied to match play; therefore, its presence in the film (as the US Open has always been a stroke play tournament) is inaccurate.

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Posted
Additional goofs in the Movie:
* Anachronisms: A shot near the end of the movie shows a door hinge secured with Philips head screws. They weren't invented until 1935.

* Miscellaneous: In the playoff round, they pan across the 3-player scoreboard very quickly and at the end we see Quimet and Vardon tied at Even. Below their score is Ted Ray at +6. If you go back frame by frame and look at the scores on each hole, we see that Ray is really only at +3 up until this point in the match.

* Miscellaneous: In the credits at the end of the movie, Sarah Wallis' name is misspelled "Sarah Wallace" in the "Young Sarah Wallace" credit.

* Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): When Sarah asks Francis his name, he pronounces his surname (Ouimet) wee-MAY, yet she pronounces it wee-MET. She wouldn't pronounce it as such from his pronunciation, she would have had to have seen it written down to pronounce it that way.

* Factual errors: The playoff wasn't close in score. Ouimet shot 72, Vardon 77 and Ray 78. But that doesn't make as good of a story as making a putt on the 18th hole to win, does it!

* Anachronisms: Eddie Lowery uses the phrase "easy peasy, lemon squeezy". This phrase is primarily a British phrase and didn't come into common use until the late 1970's.

* Continuity: Going into the fourth round of the 1913 U.S. Open, it was stated that Ouimet was trailing Vardon and Ray by one stroke. Yet, the final leader-board showed all three of them shooting 79 with a total of 304 strokes for the tournament. This would have meant that they were all tied entering the fourth round.

* Anachronisms: While practicing for the tournament, Francis is shown using a wooden golf tee. The wooden golf tee was not available commercially until 1921, being patented by a New Jersey dentist, William Lowell.

* Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): Harry Vardon is credited with inventing the "Vardon" grip, which involves the fingers of the hands overlapping. During the golf scenes both Vardon and Ouimet were using the "interlocking" golf grip, which is contradictory to the "Vardon" grip. One would think that Vardon would use the Vardon grip.

* Factual errors: The seventeenth hole of The Country Club is shown as a dogleg right, and Harry hits his ball into an unseen trap on the right side of the corner of the dogleg. In reality, the seventeenth hole at The Country Club at the time of the 1913 US Open was a dogleg left, and Vardon hit his ball into a trap on the left side of the fairway.

* Continuity: Near the end of the round, Ouimet and Vardon are shown hitting several shots at a very quick pace. At one point Ouimet is shown swinging left-handed. When he played every other shot in his round from the right-handed position.

* Factual errors: The opening shot of the movie begins with a scene set in Jersey overlaid with the caption "Isle of Jersey, England". The island of Jersey is one of the Channel Islands and is the main island of the Bailiwick of Jersey. It is closer to France than to England and is neither geographically nor administratively part of England or even the United Kingdom, but a British Crown Dependency with its own administration and the British Queen as the head of state in her capacity as the Duke of Normandy.

* Factual errors: Francis is shown looking at a yardage book, or a series of hand drawn diagrams of every hole at The Country Club. In reality, yardage books did not come into use until the 1960's, first by Deane Beman and later popularized by Jack Nicklaus. Harry Vardon is shown laying Francis a "stymie" during the playoff. A stymie occurred when a player's ball blocked the path of his opponent's ball on the green (the balls not being within six inches of each other). This only applied to singles match play. The playoff for the 1913 US Open was medal (stroke) play and the stymie rule would not have been in effect. This rule was eliminated in 1952 by the USGA.

  • 3 years later...
Posted

There are so many inaccuracies in the movie that you could fill the page up. One or two others, though - Ouimet had not quit golfing. He played in, and won the Massachusetts Amateur that year and did qualify for the US Amateur, losing in the quarter finals. the reason he initially turned down the offer to play in the US Open was that he had just been to the US Amateur and did not want to take more time off work. When his boss OKed it, he agreed to play. According to accounts, the playoff was played in rainy conditions, not sunny skies like the movie showed. Vardon also had a moustache. So who knows how many other liberties Disney took?


Posted

* Miscellaneous: In the playoff round, they pan across the 3-player scoreboard very quickly and at the end we see Quimet and Vardon tied at Even. Below their score is Ted Ray at +6. If you go back frame by frame and look at the scores on each hole, we see that Ray is really only at +3 up until this point in the match.

This is even more unusual because Frank Chirkinian of CBS started the convention of showing scoreboards relative to par (+3 or -3) about fifty years later. I believe it began at the Masters.


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    • In the 1970s and 1980s, Dean Knuth, who became known as the "Pope of Slope," created the handicap system as well as the course rating system. He consulted with the USGA through 2002, but hasn't really had a hand in the handicapping since then, and was not involved in the WHS. Suffice to say, he does not like the WHS, and he wrote an article expressing why:  https://www.popeofslope.com/world-handicap-system.html. The problem? His article… well, it's bad. Here is a brief (for me!) exploration of that article. Part 1 includes the bulk of his point, right up until the section labeled "The Par Pitfall," here: The handicapping system has seen almost no changes in the U.S. It's the rest of the world where they've seen the biggest changes. In the U.S., ESC was replaced by NDB, we have soft and hard caps, and we use 8/20 instead of 10/20 at 96%. Those are the only real changes. Dean will spend most of the rest of the time talking about par, but — and this cannot be stressed enough — the par is irrelevant. Its role in determining your playing or course handicap does three things only: It makes the score you have to shoot to "play to your handicap" make a lot more sense. It "bakes in" the changes players should have made but rarely did when playing from different tees. Through NDB, it defines the holes on which you can take a triple (or which you can take a gross bogey if you're on the + side of scratch). The calculation of your differential at the end is completely unaffected and does not involve par. Dean will spend a good amount of the time in this article talking about how par is "less precise" than the rating and slope, but he seems to miss the two points here: Par is an integer. If it helps him to think of it as 72.000000 or something, by all means, Dean… Par is used only to adjust another whole number: the strokes a player gets on the course. We don't give 10.4 strokes — a 10.4 index player might get 13, 10, 8, or whatever number of whole-number strokes.   The problem with this type of statement is that the "par handicap" could be "7" or "13" or "88" and except for affecting NDB, players competing against each other would have the same difference (except they'd still need to adjust for playing from different tees). Let's say a 10.4 and a 14.7 are playing a 71.5/127 course. Par is 72. (10.4 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 72 = 11.2 -> 11 strokes (14.7 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 72 = 16.0 -> 16 strokes -> this player gets 5 strokes Instead of 72, plug in 23 because it's your favorite number: (10.4 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 23 = 60.2 -> 60 strokes (14.7 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 23 = 65.0 -> 65 strokes -> this player gets 5 strokes They still get the strokes they deserve (5), but we've lost the meaning as players now get 60 strokes off a 10 handicap. Remove the course rating and… you're back at the same problem as we've had where players weren't doing the calculation properly, and we lose the first benefit of "playing to your handicap". An example of that, with a 12.3 index player playing on a 68.7/123 rated par 72 course. Properly: (12.3 * 123/113) + 68.7 - 72 = 10.1 -> 10 strokes Improperly: 12.3 * 123/113 = 13.4 -> 13 strokes If the player plays a "net even par" round of golf, he'll shoot 82 and 85. Here's why this makes sense: WHS: (82 - 68.7) * 113 / 123 = 12.2 differential Prior: (85 - 68.7) * 113 / 123 = 14.97 -> 15.0 differential The player "played to his handicap" with a net even par round in shooting the 82, which aligns with getting ten strokes, not 13. This makes way more sense and is in fact an improvement over the prior system for two of the three reasons listed above: It more closely aligns the index and the score you have to shoot to "shoot your handicap" It bakes in players playing from different tees.   Par is not a factor in determining the differential in the WHS system, only the playing handicap. The only way it affects the differential is that it can award a triple bogey on a few more holes (or a gross bogey max to a few + handicappers playing shorter tees) in determining NDB. You can completely ignore the WHS system of calculating your playing handicap and your differentials — the calculation of which does not use par - is going to be almost exactly the same (again, differing only when you tripled a hole on which you wouldn't have gotten NDB but now do because you didn't do the subtraction part of the WHS course/playing handicap calculation). Or maybe it was because of the other three reasons listed above. Which were the reasons given to me back in 2017 and 2018 when I talked with some of the people responsible for helping to create the WHS. If the ease of adoption by other countries and regions, then that's a fourth reason. But, I didn't really hear much about it prior to the WHS being instituted. A similar step was also required when players played from different tees, yet this was frequently forgotten. Players used to playing the blue tees would move up to the whites and expect to keep their 13 strokes, and be dismayed and sometimes even angered and argumentative that they would only get 10. This literally makes no sense. There's no more or less rounding than in previous versions. The output of "HI * Slope/113" typically produced a decimal number, the output of "HI * Slope/113 + CR - Par" also produces a decimal number, and the output of "Score * 113/Slope" (which is unchanged) also produces a decimal number. Each are rounded just as they were before. No, Dean is way off base here. Even if you accept that "par is an approximation" (of course difficulty), it's not used as he suggests. A player playing a par-72 that's rated 75 will get more COURSE handicap strokes than a player playing a par-72 that's rated 67, but that makes sense. At the end of the round, their score is processed using the same old formula to get their differential as always. This is about where I start to wonder and worry about Dean's mental faculties at his nearly 80 years of age. It hasn't "gone away" - it's been built-in as he says, and I think it's fairly obvious that this is true. No it is not. It is what I've said above, which is what the USGA and R&A have said it is. I agree that the course rating is the "most accurate measure of the relative difficulty for the scratch golfer" (I mean, it's almost exactly the defeinition), and slope determines the relative difficulty between two levels of player. So, which of these formulas incorporates BOTH the CR and the Slope in determining a player's course handicap: a. (HI * Slope/113) + CR - Par b. (HI * Slope/113) Clearly A incorporates "the most accurate measure of the relative difficulty" (as well as the measure of the relative difficulty). Dean's favored formula did NOT include "the most accurate measure of the relative difficulty for the scratch golfer". A scratch golfer under Dean's preferred method could shoot an even par round of 72 and see a differential that ranged from +2.7 (75.4/140) to 5.5 (66.3/118) or something. Under the WHS, if they shoot net par, they're going to end up with about a 0.0 differential. No. Again, you could subtract any integer from the Course Rating (which again the WHS ADDS to the calculation in course/playing handicap that the older system did not) and get the same relative course handicaps for all players. Using par just helps it make the most sense to actual golfers. It's an integer… as are the scores we shoot and the pars of the holes we play. The addition of the "CR - Par" has almost no effect on a player's differential. Again, the only affect it would have is when NDB is applied, because there may be a few holes where they'd get a stroke that they do not. And even then, it requires the player to card a triple on that specific hole, and be among their 8 out of 20 counting scores, AND even then if it happens once a round in ALL of the eight rounds, it's about 1 stroke on their index (probably a bit less given that most slopes are > 113). This has nothing to do with "jumping in" and everything to do with the foundational reasons for adding (CR - Par). Dean sees it as "adding par" when he would more accurately see it as adding the Course Rating! Small point of order: this was not shown to be accurate. The 96% applied to all 10 scores almost perfectly offset the dropping of two middle scores. Some players indexes went up a little. Some went down a little. The net change was almost exactly 0. Yes, that's how math works. The change makes MORE sense, again, as a player shooting net par under the WHS has basically "shot their handicap". Shoot below net par and your handicap will likely go down. Shoot above it and it may go up a little (less chance of this than shooting under lowering it, though, of course). So? Half of the players who play a 72.5/72-par course will see their Course Handicap one higher than they had before the system and half will not! Also and again, players who play a course rated 68.7 par-72 will all see their course handicaps drop several strokes. That's just math, and the boundaries of rounding. Dean chose a 0.5 marker, but the same math is true at any level, because the HI already has a decimal, and the Slope/113 multiplier also tends to produce decimals. So, someone who previously had a 10.5 to 10.9 index will still be an 11, while the 10.0s to 10.4s will go up to 11s. But on another course where the decimals work out to 0.3 and 0.2… the same math applies. And on a course where the decimals work out to 0.8… players half of the players will get an "extra" stroke and half will not. This is just rounding. It's always been a part of the WHS. The point at which rounding occurs might move slightly (depending on the course and index in question) for half of the situations, but if you have a 10.0 and an 11.5… or a 10.5 and an 12.0… half of the time the higher handicapper will get the "extra" stroke, and half the time the lower handicapper will get the "extra" stroke. This is just how rounding works. Handicaps in match play are almost entirely unaffected. A 13 playing a 10 might now be a 10 playing a 7, but the difference is still the same size. You're subtracting out a constant (CR - Par) from both players. The (HI * Slope/113) remains the same. This makes no sense and Dean has absolutely failed to provide any basis for this "less accurate" while ignoring that the WHS ADDS the CR to the course handicap calculation. It is easier. Shoot net par and you've "played to your handicap." Yes, and what they say is both accurate and makes sense. The WHS method bakes in the "playing from different tees" and makes it easier to know what it takes to "play to your handicap." Those are my notes right up until "The Par Pitfall." Dean has yet to make a valid point in any of this blog post thus far. When I have the time, and feel like procrastinating a bit more like today, I'll continue with my response to this blog post. I respect what Dean did in creating the original handicap system and the course ratinga system. The course rating system is one of the most elegant solutions to a very complex problem that I have ever seen. Nothing done by the WHS changes that. The course rating system is relatively unchanged, and its application in the WHS is, again, MORE accurate by the inclusion of the Course Rating than the previous system, in addition to the other benefits. Dean deserves (and has been given) much credit for that. But, if this is how he thinks these days, Dean can remain Pope Emeritus but the Cardinals need to elect a new Pope.
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