Advise before a stipulated round

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacDutch 

Before I tee-off on the first hole of a matchplay, I tell my opponent I will hit my 7 iron to keep the sandtrap on the right side of the fairway out of play.  I do this on purpose.

 

Do I loose the hole giving this advise? My stipulated round did not yet start......

You may not offer advice which may influence your opponent in making his stroke or playing his ball.  Rule 1-4 would address this sort of issue by ruling according to equity.  Even though the stipulated round had not yet begun, your action is clearly intended to influence his play during the round.  In equity, you should be penalized with the loss of the 1st hole under Rule 13-1.

At least that's how I see it.

I would argue that it doesn't count as advice, whether or not the round has started, based on the bolded part of the definition:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stretch 

I would argue that it doesn't count as advice, whether or not the round has started, based on the bolded part of the definition:

 

 

Quote:

Advice is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club, or the method of making a stroke. Information on the Rules, distance, or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards, or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

The choice of club he was going to hit is NOT a matter of public information.....nor the reasoning behind his choice of that club.

Had he simply mentioned that the distance to the bunker on the right was 180 yards, that would qualify as public information and the comment would not be subject to penalty.  Decision 8-1/2 pertains.

Maybe. It's an edge case to me, as I feel he was primarily drawing his opponent's attention to the existence and position of the hazard. But I could easily go with your reasoning, too. 

If you do take that view then yes, you get the penalty, because it's not like your opponent is going to forget what you said before the round does start. The advice carries over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacDutch 

But this is the rule and I did not start my stipulated round...

 

8-1. Advice

During a stipulated round, a player must not:

a. give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner, or

b. ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.

I guess the question is, when does a stipulated round begin, and I don't find anywhere in the rules where that is defined.  The impression I got from your OP was that you were on or near the teeing area, but had not yet struck a shot.  You further stated that you did it intentionally in an effort to affect his play. 

Therefore I fall back on good 'ole Rule 1-4, which states that in the case where a point of dispute is not covered by the Rules, the decision should be made in accordance with equity.  You'll note that Fourputt's answer specifically mentioned that "in equity" you should be penalized.  I agree with that.

Had the conversation happened at breakfast a few hours before the round, I could see an argument that no violation occurred.

Well, I'm going to be slightly contrary.  First, I think what was said would be advice because it's suggesting how to play the hole.....hit a shorter shot that keeps the hazard out of play.  This rule is not intent based, so even if the player was trying to be helpful with public information, he still gave advice.

But.....because the advice was given other than in a stipulated round, I'd feel  more comfortable giving the player a penalty under R8-1 if I could find a similar decision to what transpired in the OP's question.  The closest thing I could find would seem to indicate no penalty on the basis that neither player was currently playing in a stipulated round.

8-1/18

Player Who Has Not Yet Played Seeks Advice from Player Who Has Finished Round

Q.May a player about to start his round seek advice as to clubs used at various holes from a player who has just finished?

A.Yes. Rule 8-1 applies only during the play of a round.

2/2

Stipulated Round in Match Play

In all forms of match play other than threesomes and foursomes, a player has begun his stipulated round when he makes his first stroke in that round. In threesomes and foursomes match play, the side has begun its stipulated round when it makes its first stroke in that round.

The stipulated round has ended in match play when all of the players in the match have completed the final hole of the match (although a player may lodge a subsequent claim under Rule 2-5 or correct wrong information under Rule 9-2b(iii)). With the first round of a 36-hole match, the stipulated round has ended when all the players in the match have completed the final hole of that stipulated round.

3/3

Stipulated Round in Stroke Play

In all forms of stroke play other than foursomes, a competitor has begun his stipulated round when he makes his first stroke in that round. In foursomes stroke play, the side has begun its stipulated round when it makes its first stroke in that round.

In individual stroke play, the competitor's stipulated round has ended when he has completed play of the final hole of that round (including correction of an error under a Rule, e.g., Rule 15-3b or Rule 20-7c). In foursomes or four-ball stroke play, the stipulated round has ended when the side has completed play of the final hole of that round (including correction of an error under a Rule).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dormie1360 

Well, I'm going to be slightly contrary.  First, I think what was said would be advice because it's suggesting how to play the hole.....hit a shorter shot that keeps the hazard out of play.  This rule is not intent based, so even if the player was trying to be helpful with public information, he still gave advice.

 

But.....because the advice was given other than in a stipulated round, I'd feel  more comfortable giving the player a penalty under R8-1 if I could find a similar decision to what transpired in the OP's question.  The closest thing I could find would seem to indicate no penalty on the basis that neither player was currently playing in a stipulated round.

 

8-1/18

Player Who Has Not Yet Played Seeks Advice from Player Who Has Finished Round

 

Q.May a player about to start his round seek advice as to clubs used at various holes from a player who has just finished?

 

A.Yes. Rule 8-1 applies only during the play of a round.

At what point does a stipulated round begin?  I can't find that anywhere.....that's why I fell back to 1-4.

I edited my post to include the definition of a stipulated round.

Think of it this way, you and I are having breakfast before a match.  I say, you'd have a better chance of beating me if you used your 3 wood all day, especially on hole #1.  Would I be penlalized for giving advice? 

I think we are getting hung up on the OP's question because it happened on the tee.  But, if the stipulated round hasn't started, still no violation.

IMHO anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dormie1360 

I edited my post to include the definition of a stipulated round.

 

Think of it this way, you and I are having breakfast before a match.  I say, you'd have a better chance of beating me if you used your 3 wood all day, especially on hole #1.  Would I be penlalized for giving advice? 

 

I think we are getting hung up on the OP's question because it happened on the tee.  But, if the stipulated round hasn't started, still no violation.

 

IMHO anyway.

Damn, don't know why I missed that.

Given that 8-1 is specifically limited to the stipulated round and that is clearly defined, I'm gonna have to agree with you.  1-4 doesn't apply and it would appear as if no violation occurred.

Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dormie1360 

I edited my post to include the definition of a stipulated round.

 

Think of it this way, you and I are having breakfast before a match.  I say, you'd have a better chance of beating me if you used your 3 wood all day, especially on hole #1.  Would I be penlalized for giving advice? 

 

I think we are getting hung up on the OP's question because it happened on the tee.  But, if the stipulated round hasn't started, still no violation.

 

IMHO anyway.

But his intent was to influence his opponent's play.  That has to be taken into consideration.  8-1/18 does not involve a deliberate attempt to influence one's opponent.  This is precisely the sort of issue that 1-4 is intended to address.  

It would be ludicrous to allow a player to jump around, yell and otherwise carry on during his opponent's first stroke on the first tee and be able to do so without fear of penalty just because his own stipulated round hasn't started yet.

Depending on the gravity of the situation, Rule 33-7 could possibly come into play, and if that is imposed, the penalty would be disqualification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt 

 

But his intent was to influence his opponent's play.  That has to be taken into consideration.  8-1/18 does not involve a deliberate attempt to influence one's opponent.  This is precisely the sort of issue that 1-4 is intended to address.  

 

It would be ludicrous to allow a player to jump around, yell and otherwise carry on during his opponent's first stroke on the first tee and be able to do so without fear of penalty just because his own stipulated round hasn't started yet.

 

Depending on the gravity of the situation, Rule 33-7 could possibly come into play, and if that is imposed, the penalty would be disqualification.

But what if his intent was to influence his play when he told him the same thing at breakfast earlier in the day? At what point before the match does it not matter anymore? At breakfast is ok, but on the tee box is not... what about at the range warming up or on the walk to the tee?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt 

 

But his intent was to influence his opponent's play.  That has to be taken into consideration.  8-1/18 does not involve a deliberate attempt to influence one's opponent.  This is precisely the sort of issue that 1-4 is intended to address.  

 

It would be ludicrous to allow a player to jump around, yell and otherwise carry on during his opponent's first stroke on the first tee and be able to do so without fear of penalty just because his own stipulated round hasn't started yet.

 

Depending on the gravity of the situation, Rule 33-7 could possibly come into play, and if that is imposed, the penalty would be disqualification.

If it is a deliberate attempt to influence his opponent I have to go with Fourputt on this one. I don't know about using rule 1-4, but 33-7 would definitely come into play. Either way it is something that would have to be determined by the tournament rules committee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt 

 

But his intent was to influence his opponent's play.  That has to be taken into consideration.  8-1/18 does not involve a deliberate attempt to influence one's opponent.  This is precisely the sort of issue that 1-4 is intended to address.  

 

It would be ludicrous to allow a player to jump around, yell and otherwise carry on during his opponent's first stroke on the first tee and be able to do so without fear of penalty just because his own stipulated round hasn't started yet.

 

Depending on the gravity of the situation, Rule 33-7 could possibly come into play, and if that is imposed, the penalty would be disqualification.

But what if his intent was to influence his play when he told him the same thing at breakfast earlier in the day? At what point before the match does it not matter anymore? At breakfast is ok, but on the tee box is not... what about at the range warming up or on the walk to the tee?

The player has time to think about it and make up his own mind.  Wind and other weather conditions can change.  The farther the discussion is removed from the start of the round, the less relevant any such discussion becomes.  The Rules have already modified one rule (the 14 club rule - decision 4-4a/6) to address arrival on the tee, so there is some precedent for the creation of a timeline beginning at that point.  Until someone gives me a USGA ruling which denies it, I'm going with the loss of hole penalty for the sake of equity.    

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt 

But his intent was to influence his opponent's play. That has to be taken into consideration.

I disagree that it has to be taken into consideration.

There are very few rules where intent matters. This one is cut and dry. Otherwise, you're stuck trying to figure out what kinds of comments made how many minutes or seconds before the start of a stipulated round matter.

Does saying "man these greens are fast today - gonna want to stay below the hole today" as your opponent hits his last few practice putts showing "intent"? Who cares - it's not during a stipulated round. And is my "intent" on saying "give me the 5-iron" to my caddie to influence my opponent's play, or simply to tell my caddie to get the 5-iron out?

Equity only matters when the rules aren't clear. The Rules of Golf provide a very clear line on this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas 

 

I disagree that it has to be taken into consideration.

 

There are very few rules where intent matters. This one is cut and dry. Otherwise, you're stuck trying to figure out what kinds of comments made how many minutes or seconds before the start of a stipulated round matter.

 

Does saying "man these greens are fast today - gonna want to stay below the hole today" as your opponent hits his last few practice putts showing "intent"? Who cares - it's not during a stipulated round. And is my "intent" on saying "give me the 5-iron" to my caddie to influence my opponent's play, or simply to tell my caddie to get the 5-iron out?

 

Equity only matters when the rules aren't clear. The Rules of Golf provide a very clear line on this one.

I agree with the jist of your post.  

There is a decision where intent does come into play, however.  In our discussion the OP didn't make it clear if he was trying to purposely mislead the opponent.  Also, it wasn't about a specific club selection.  Clearly, in my opinion at least, R8-1 is not applicable.  I think it comes down to whether or not R1-4 is.

I'll get to the bottom of this and report back.

8-1/9

Misleading Statement About Club Selection

Q.A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?

A.A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.