Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
IGNORED

Stroke Allotment in Games When Playing Front Nine Twice?


Note: This thread is 2131 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Posted

In a friendly 18 hole game over the weekend, due to increment weather, the course only opened the front nine.
This is typical conditions on Nine Hole Courses, when playing a 18 hole match, I assume.
@DaveP043 need your help, I'm confused as usual …  :cry:

On pages 63 - 64 Rule 6.1a of the new Rules of Handicapping.
 

Quote

Course handicap = Handicap Index x (9 hole slope rating / 113) + (2 x 9 hole course rating – 2 x 9 Hole Par)

Calculating the course handicaps are the following -  DDA (-1) Dan (2) John (5)
I'm assuming this applies for 18 holes?

Now is my confusion on this matter.
Would DDA lose a stroke on the Hdcp Hole #17 which is the 8th hole on the front side?
Dan would receive 1 stroke on Hole #3 which is the #1 handicap hole on the front side?
John would receive 3 strokes during the first nine holes and 2 strokes during the second time playing on the front side?
Hole #3 (#1 hdcp) Hole #2 ( #3 hdcp) and Hole #6 (#5 hdcp)

Is my assumption for stroke allotment correct?

One note I discovered,18 hole course handicaps were different due to course rating from only the front.
The CH for our 18 hole course are, DDA (1) Dan (4) John (7) we each had a difference of two strokes.
Handicap Index - DDA (1.3) Dan (6.0) John (8.5)

Here is the course rating for the front nine at our course - DDA played the Blue, Dan and I played the Blue/White

Tee Ratings.PNG

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted

John, what is par on the front?  Or what golf course are you at now, I can look this up?

Dave

:callaway: Rogue SubZero Driver

:titleist: 915F 15 Fairway, 816 H1 19 Hybrid, AP2 4 iron to PW, Vokey 52, 56, and 60 wedges, ProV1 balls 
:ping: G5i putter, B60 version
 :ping:Hoofer Bag, complete with Newport Cup logo
:footjoy::true_linkswear:, and Ashworth shoes

the only thing wrong with this car is the nut behind the wheel.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

John, what is par on the front?  Or what golf course are you at now, I can look this up?

OK, I'm a fool, I see it now. 

Using those numbers, I see DDA as a 0 handicap (0.4955 actually, rounding down), and agree with your calculations for Dan and yourself.  Having DDA at scratch makes the calculations simpler than having him giving back a stroke.  If you're playing any kind of match play, I always play off the low handicap in the competition, so even if he WAS giving back one, I wouldn't be subtracting one from him, I'd be giving you and Dan one more stroke apiece.  This is consistent with Appendix C, Handicap Allowances.

For you, getting 7 strokes, I believe you should have 4 on the first 9, and 3 on the second time around.  This is consistent with the recommendation in Appendix E to allocate the Odd numbers to the front side unless there's a compelling reason to rate the back 9 as the more difficult side.  Obviously, since you're playing the same 9 twice, there's no compelling reason.

  • Upvote 1

Dave

:callaway: Rogue SubZero Driver

:titleist: 915F 15 Fairway, 816 H1 19 Hybrid, AP2 4 iron to PW, Vokey 52, 56, and 60 wedges, ProV1 balls 
:ping: G5i putter, B60 version
 :ping:Hoofer Bag, complete with Newport Cup logo
:footjoy::true_linkswear:, and Ashworth shoes

the only thing wrong with this car is the nut behind the wheel.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

John, what is par on the front?

36 Dave. My course is Winghaven CC in Missouri.

Here's a direct link - WHCC

Thanks, I've never had this situation and it was a pain trying to explain to my partner who's a Frenchman  :whistle: 

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
Just now, Club Rat said:

36 Dave. My course is Winghaven CC in Missouri.

Here's a direct link - WHCC

Thanks, I've never had this situation and it was a pain trying to explain to my partner who's a Frenchman  :whistle: 

Did my explanations make sense?  The only thing I noticed was that you had the first guy at +1, and I calculated him at scratch.  If he had played the Blue/White combo, he'd have been +1.

Dave

:callaway: Rogue SubZero Driver

:titleist: 915F 15 Fairway, 816 H1 19 Hybrid, AP2 4 iron to PW, Vokey 52, 56, and 60 wedges, ProV1 balls 
:ping: G5i putter, B60 version
 :ping:Hoofer Bag, complete with Newport Cup logo
:footjoy::true_linkswear:, and Ashworth shoes

the only thing wrong with this car is the nut behind the wheel.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The only thing I noticed was that you had the first guy at +1,

DDA played the Blue, my calc in my spreadsheet had him at -1 and it was confirmed our pro.
I never had a chance to speak with the pro to ask where the strokes would fall.
We were playing a "Nine Point Game" and yes we generally played off the low ball.
Half the fun was ribbing Didier (yes he's French) in the end I lost 3 bucks to him, so he got the last laugh...
I just want to confirm that he should have been giving back a stroke on #8 a par 3.
Have you ever tried arguing with a Frenchman?
It's hilarious.....

Same Nine.PNG

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted

I'm wondering how your Blue tees would have a lower Slope but a higher CR than a Blue/White (shorter?) combo, I don't think I've ever seen that before.  Beyond that, I'm wondering how you went from the equation for Course Handicap, which calculates the numbers shown in your Index column, to get the Course Handicap column.  To me, the Index column numbers should simply be rounded to get Course Handicaps of 0, 4, and 7.  That's also what I get from the USGA Course Handicap Calculator page.

handicap.jpg

Dave

:callaway: Rogue SubZero Driver

:titleist: 915F 15 Fairway, 816 H1 19 Hybrid, AP2 4 iron to PW, Vokey 52, 56, and 60 wedges, ProV1 balls 
:ping: G5i putter, B60 version
 :ping:Hoofer Bag, complete with Newport Cup logo
:footjoy::true_linkswear:, and Ashworth shoes

the only thing wrong with this car is the nut behind the wheel.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

recommendation in Appendix E

Damn I overlooked your post, that was exactly what I need. 

Yes I was puzzled also on the Calc for DDA. 
I'll send you a link to my spreadsheet, maybe it will help explaining.
I believe because his Index was -.44 it rounded down.
I wasn't sure if calculations should always round to nearest or round up or down.
6.2 indicated to round up at .5

Quote

The calculated Playing Handicap is rounded to the nearest whole number, with .5 rounded upwards.

I used the USGA calculator when we look up course handicaps when we started.
It does indicate a 1.3 Index as a CH = 1 at our Blue Tees


But, I wasn't sure how to allocate strokes for the second round on the front.
I told them I assumed and that's when the shit hit the fan... 🙂
I dealing with the old Comish who's with the STL District and the Frenchie who's always wrong. Lol

Anyway, I'll PM a link to my spreadsheet.
Thanks, Dave

 

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
50 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm wondering how your Blue tees would have a lower Slope but a higher CR than a Blue/White (shorter?) combo, I don't think I've ever seen that before.

Our course was re-rated three years ago and I questioned the ratings then.
It inflates players Handicaps, IMO.
I contacted USGA and they directed me to our local affiliate Metro Am.

When I emailed them, I simply requested a copy of the rating notes.
I then received a email from our clubs GM who is the PGA - District 7 Director, 2019-2021, PGA of America
"the rating notes are not permitted"

IMO, the Combo Course tee selections make no sense on the BLU/WHT.
The front side players move forward to the white on 3 par 4's
On the back, they move up on 6 holes. 2 - par 4's both par 5's and both par 3's. 
Anyway, I have 15 years with 7K rounds recorded and the scores at the blue are almost equal at the Front and Back

Rows are Gold, GLD/BLK, Black, BLK/BLU, Blue, BLU/WHT, White, RED/WHT and Red
The three I highlighted have a significance slope difference. 
FB Rating.PNG

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
1 hour ago, Club Rat said:

Damn I overlooked your post, that was exactly what I need. 

Yes I was puzzled also on the Calc for DDA. 
I'll send you a link to my spreadsheet, maybe it will help explaining.
I believe because his Index was -.44 it rounded down.
I wasn't sure if calculations should always round to nearest or round up or down.
6.2 indicated to round up at .5

I used the USGA calculator when we look up course handicaps when we started.
It does indicate a 1.3 Index as a CH = 1 at our Blue Tees


But, I wasn't sure how to allocate strokes for the second round on the front.
I told them I assumed and that's when the shit hit the fan... 🙂
I dealing with the old Comish who's with the STL District and the Frenchie who's always wrong. Lol

Anyway, I'll PM a link to my spreadsheet.
Thanks, Dave

 

I think I figured it out, and emailed back.  There was a second accounting for the (CR-Par) term, which caused the discrepancy.  

I believe the old system simply truncated the calculated course handicap, always rounded it down.   As you said, now its simply rounded, with 0.5 rounding up.  But now that we're not using slide rules, we can carry enough significant figures to tell the difference between 0.49 and 0.51, retaining a little more precision than we once did.

Again, when allocating strokes to individual holes, the recommendation is to go off the low handicapper, so nobody is ever having strokes ADDED to his score.  This is never an issue with stroke play, the Plus handicappers get strokes added to the total score, but when looking at individual holes, its best to start counting at zero.  

This is one interesting thing about the new terminology.  Course Handicaps are always used in calculating Net Double Bogey for maximum hole score and Net Par for holes not played.  Playing Handicap is used in a competition to allocate strokes.  Beyond adjusting for match play off the low ball, Playing handicap may also be reduced from the Course Handicap by some percentage, depending on the format of the competition, as indicated in Appendix C.

 

Dave

:callaway: Rogue SubZero Driver

:titleist: 915F 15 Fairway, 816 H1 19 Hybrid, AP2 4 iron to PW, Vokey 52, 56, and 60 wedges, ProV1 balls 
:ping: G5i putter, B60 version
 :ping:Hoofer Bag, complete with Newport Cup logo
:footjoy::true_linkswear:, and Ashworth shoes

the only thing wrong with this car is the nut behind the wheel.

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Posted
55 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

The three I highlighted have a significance slope difference. 

I'm not sure what your actual question is.

The highest "slope difference" there is 10, which is less than a 9% difference, AND it's the slope, not the course rating, so you're talking about multiplying a differential by either 0.89 or by 0.83. Not a big difference.

So what's your actual question?

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
9 minutes ago, iacas said:

So what's your actual question?

Why would the slope difference be so vast on the highlighted course setups?
Score records show an equal scoring average with over 7k rounds recorded.

I guess I'm not seeing the big picture in course ratings by the team who rated our course.
With out there notes, we have no idea how they reach these ratings.

I've looked at several other course ratings and there are courses which have similar differences.
So, I guess it's not uncommon.
 

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Posted
17 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Why would the slope difference be so vast on the highlighted course setups?

Because it's not a "vast" difference.

17 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Score records show an equal scoring average with over 7k rounds recorded.

From whom?

16 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

I guess I'm not seeing the big picture in course ratings by the team who rated our course.
With out there notes, we have no idea how they reach these ratings.

Well, again, you're seeing a "vast" difference where there really isn't one. So that's coloring your whole way of thinking here. The course ratings aren't very different, and that's MUCH more likely to result in changes to scoring.

And, you don't get to see their notes, but you can essentially re-create them. They're just a bunch of numbers, many of which are empirical. You can measure the depth of bunkers, their proximity to greens, and stuff like that.

16 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

I've looked at several other course ratings and there are courses which have similar differences.
So, I guess it's not uncommon.

Which means they've probably done it correctly.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Thanks Erik, your comments paint a clearer picture.
The records I was referring are from members at our club.
The scores are from a handicap range of players (+4 up to 28 Hdcp) over a course of 14 years of rounds played. 

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 2131 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.