Stroke Allotment in Games When Playing Front Nine Twice?

[Club Rat]

In a friendly 18 hole game over the weekend, due to increment weather, the course only opened the front nine.
This is typical conditions on Nine Hole Courses, when playing a 18 hole match, I assume.
@DaveP043 need your help, I'm confused as usual …  

On pages 63 - 64 Rule 6.1a of the new Rules of Handicapping.
 

Quote

Course handicap = Handicap Index x (9 hole slope rating / 113) + (2 x 9 hole course rating – 2 x 9 Hole Par)

Calculating the course handicaps are the following -  DDA (-1) Dan (2) John (5)
I'm assuming this applies for 18 holes?

Now is my confusion on this matter.
Would DDA lose a stroke on the Hdcp Hole #17 which is the 8th hole on the front side?
Dan would receive 1 stroke on Hole #3 which is the #1 handicap hole on the front side?
John would receive 3 strokes during the first nine holes and 2 strokes during the second time playing on the front side?
Hole #3 (#1 hdcp) Hole #2 ( #3 hdcp) and Hole #6 (#5 hdcp)

Is my assumption for stroke allotment correct?

One note I discovered,18 hole course handicaps were different due to course rating from only the front.
The CH for our 18 hole course are, DDA (1) Dan (4) John (7) we each had a difference of two strokes.
Handicap Index - DDA (1.3) Dan (6.0) John (8.5)

Here is the course rating for the front nine at our course - DDA played the Blue, Dan and I played the Blue/White

[DaveP043]

John, what is par on the front?  Or what golf course are you at now, I can look this up?

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

John, what is par on the front?  Or what golf course are you at now, I can look this up?

OK, I'm a fool, I see it now. 

Using those numbers, I see DDA as a 0 handicap (0.4955 actually, rounding down), and agree with your calculations for Dan and yourself.  Having DDA at scratch makes the calculations simpler than having him giving back a stroke.  If you're playing any kind of match play, I always play off the low handicap in the competition, so even if he WAS giving back one, I wouldn't be subtracting one from him, I'd be giving you and Dan one more stroke apiece.  This is consistent with Appendix C, Handicap Allowances.

For you, getting 7 strokes, I believe you should have 4 on the first 9, and 3 on the second time around.  This is consistent with the recommendation in Appendix E to allocate the Odd numbers to the front side unless there's a compelling reason to rate the back 9 as the more difficult side.  Obviously, since you're playing the same 9 twice, there's no compelling reason.

[Club Rat]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

John, what is par on the front?

36 Dave. My course is Winghaven CC in Missouri.

Here's a direct link - WHCC

Thanks, I've never had this situation and it was a pain trying to explain to my partner who's a Frenchman   

[DaveP043]

Just now, Club Rat said:

36 Dave. My course is Winghaven CC in Missouri.

Here's a direct link - WHCC

Thanks, I've never had this situation and it was a pain trying to explain to my partner who's a Frenchman   

Did my explanations make sense?  The only thing I noticed was that you had the first guy at +1, and I calculated him at scratch.  If he had played the Blue/White combo, he'd have been +1.

[Club Rat]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The only thing I noticed was that you had the first guy at +1,

DDA played the Blue, my calc in my spreadsheet had him at -1 and it was confirmed our pro.
I never had a chance to speak with the pro to ask where the strokes would fall.
We were playing a "Nine Point Game" and yes we generally played off the low ball.
Half the fun was ribbing Didier (yes he's French) in the end I lost 3 bucks to him, so he got the last laugh...
I just want to confirm that he should have been giving back a stroke on #8 a par 3.
Have you ever tried arguing with a Frenchman?
It's hilarious.....

[DaveP043]

I'm wondering how your Blue tees would have a lower Slope but a higher CR than a Blue/White (shorter?) combo, I don't think I've ever seen that before.  Beyond that, I'm wondering how you went from the equation for Course Handicap, which calculates the numbers shown in your Index column, to get the Course Handicap column.  To me, the Index column numbers should simply be rounded to get Course Handicaps of 0, 4, and 7.  That's also what I get from the USGA Course Handicap Calculator page.

[Club Rat]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

recommendation in Appendix E

Damn I overlooked your post, that was exactly what I need. 

Yes I was puzzled also on the Calc for DDA. 
I'll send you a link to my spreadsheet, maybe it will help explaining.
I believe because his Index was -.44 it rounded down.
I wasn't sure if calculations should always round to nearest or round up or down.
6.2 indicated to round up at .5

Quote

The calculated Playing Handicap is rounded to the nearest whole number, with .5 rounded upwards.

I used the USGA calculator when we look up course handicaps when we started.
It does indicate a 1.3 Index as a CH = 1 at our Blue Tees

But, I wasn't sure how to allocate strokes for the second round on the front.
I told them I assumed and that's when the shit hit the fan... 🙂
I dealing with the old Comish who's with the STL District and the Frenchie who's always wrong. Lol

Anyway, I'll PM a link to my spreadsheet.
Thanks, Dave

 

[Club Rat]

50 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm wondering how your Blue tees would have a lower Slope but a higher CR than a Blue/White (shorter?) combo, I don't think I've ever seen that before.

Our course was re-rated three years ago and I questioned the ratings then.
It inflates players Handicaps, IMO.
I contacted USGA and they directed me to our local affiliate Metro Am.

When I emailed them, I simply requested a copy of the rating notes.
I then received a email from our clubs GM who is the PGA - District 7 Director, 2019-2021, PGA of America
"the rating notes are not permitted"

IMO, the Combo Course tee selections make no sense on the BLU/WHT.
The front side players move forward to the white on 3 par 4's
On the back, they move up on 6 holes. 2 - par 4's both par 5's and both par 3's. 
Anyway, I have 15 years with 7K rounds recorded and the scores at the blue are almost equal at the Front and Back

Rows are Gold, GLD/BLK, Black, BLK/BLU, Blue, BLU/WHT, White, RED/WHT and Red
The three I highlighted have a significance slope difference. 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Club Rat said:

Damn I overlooked your post, that was exactly what I need. 

Yes I was puzzled also on the Calc for DDA. 
I'll send you a link to my spreadsheet, maybe it will help explaining.
I believe because his Index was -.44 it rounded down.
I wasn't sure if calculations should always round to nearest or round up or down.
6.2 indicated to round up at .5

I used the USGA calculator when we look up course handicaps when we started.
It does indicate a 1.3 Index as a CH = 1 at our Blue Tees

But, I wasn't sure how to allocate strokes for the second round on the front.
I told them I assumed and that's when the shit hit the fan... 🙂
I dealing with the old Comish who's with the STL District and the Frenchie who's always wrong. Lol

Anyway, I'll PM a link to my spreadsheet.
Thanks, Dave

 

I think I figured it out, and emailed back.  There was a second accounting for the (CR-Par) term, which caused the discrepancy.  

I believe the old system simply truncated the calculated course handicap, always rounded it down.   As you said, now its simply rounded, with 0.5 rounding up.  But now that we're not using slide rules, we can carry enough significant figures to tell the difference between 0.49 and 0.51, retaining a little more precision than we once did.

Again, when allocating strokes to individual holes, the recommendation is to go off the low handicapper, so nobody is ever having strokes ADDED to his score.  This is never an issue with stroke play, the Plus handicappers get strokes added to the total score, but when looking at individual holes, its best to start counting at zero.  

This is one interesting thing about the new terminology.  Course Handicaps are always used in calculating Net Double Bogey for maximum hole score and Net Par for holes not played.  Playing Handicap is used in a competition to allocate strokes.  Beyond adjusting for match play off the low ball, Playing handicap may also be reduced from the Course Handicap by some percentage, depending on the format of the competition, as indicated in Appendix C.

 

[iacas]

55 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

The three I highlighted have a significance slope difference. 

I'm not sure what your actual question is.

The highest "slope difference" there is 10, which is less than a 9% difference, AND it's the slope, not the course rating, so you're talking about multiplying a differential by either 0.89 or by 0.83. Not a big difference.

So what's your actual question?

[Club Rat]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

So what's your actual question?

Why would the slope difference be so vast on the highlighted course setups?
Score records show an equal scoring average with over 7k rounds recorded.

I guess I'm not seeing the big picture in course ratings by the team who rated our course.
With out there notes, we have no idea how they reach these ratings.

I've looked at several other course ratings and there are courses which have similar differences.
So, I guess it's not uncommon.
 

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Why would the slope difference be so vast on the highlighted course setups?

Because it's not a "vast" difference.

17 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Score records show an equal scoring average with over 7k rounds recorded.

From whom?

16 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

I guess I'm not seeing the big picture in course ratings by the team who rated our course.
With out there notes, we have no idea how they reach these ratings.

Well, again, you're seeing a "vast" difference where there really isn't one. So that's coloring your whole way of thinking here. The course ratings aren't very different, and that's MUCH more likely to result in changes to scoring.

And, you don't get to see their notes, but you can essentially re-create them. They're just a bunch of numbers, many of which are empirical. You can measure the depth of bunkers, their proximity to greens, and stuff like that.

16 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

I've looked at several other course ratings and there are courses which have similar differences.
So, I guess it's not uncommon.

Which means they've probably done it correctly.

[Club Rat]

Thanks Erik, your comments paint a clearer picture.
The records I was referring are from members at our club.
The scores are from a handicap range of players (+4 up to 28 Hdcp) over a course of 14 years of rounds played.