Cap Patrol - Handicap Evaluation

[klaugh]

It's $7 per golfer so it's not that bad considering the amount of time & effort it will save you. You can try to replicate it on your own but you will find it's very time consuming. The nice thing about Cap Patrol it takes the 'human bias' of a handicap committee decison out of the equation as Cap Patrol treats everyone the same. I hope they give you your 'rasie'! 😉

PS:  the USGA is making changes to the Rules of Handicapping for 2024. They are going to implement their own version of a modification starting Jan 1st, should be interesting. They finally are addressing one of the key problems with GHIN.

[iacas]

9 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

$2,000 - $3,000 sounds like a lot of money when an active Handicap Committee can do the same thing. I think I will ask for a raise at the next Board meeting. 😉

No you can't, Brian.

[DaveP043]

On 11/19/2023 at 8:53 AM, klaugh said:

They are going to implement their own version of a modification starting Jan 1st, should be interesting.

As I read it, the USGA through GHIN will add some new analysis and reporting capabilities, including suggested handicap modifications, but accepting and enacting any suggested modifications will be the responsibility of the Committee.

[klaugh]

6 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

As I read it, the USGA through GHIN will add some new analysis and reporting capabilities, including suggested handicap modifications, but accepting and enacting any suggested modifications will be the responsibility of the Committee.

Yep, still waiting to see what the USGA Guidelines say, that is due out in December. About time the USGA put something into GHIN that address's the issue they have long ignored. The only challenge will be that this might/will bring 'human bias' into the decision making process. Whereas Cap Patrol takes the human element out of the process.

 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, klaugh said:

Yep, still waiting to see what the USGA Guidelines say, that is due out in December. About time the USGA put something into GHIN that address's the issue they have long ignored. The only challenge will be that this might/will bring 'human bias' into the decision making process. Whereas Cap Patrol takes the human element out of the process.

Long ignored?

[klaugh]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Long ignored?

Yes, IMO, they have long ignored players showing up with the 'wrong index'. Either knowingly or unknowingly players are playing with the wrong index. The USGA could have done what Cap Patrol has done or as they are about to do by creating a program that looks at a players current index, LHI (low handicap index) and the competition index to see if they are truly playing at an index that represents their demonstrated ability as per their rules of handicapping.  They won't share how they are going to come up with their numbers but we'll soon see what they have in store!

On 4/27/2022 at 10:49 AM, Darkfrog said:

Couldn't sandbaggers just not submit a good score, and manipulate their handicap by not giving "genius" computer program data to analyze?

yes, they do that often, it's up to club members or the handicap committe to police players who don't turn I scores or turn in 'incorrect' scores. At some clubs up many rounds are not posted or posted improperly.

 

On 4/27/2022 at 12:43 PM, imsys0042 said:

We have someone at my local club who is absolutely notorious for being a sandbagger.   And he loves it.  He'll take your money and smile when you say anything about it.   People are trying to verify if he actually plays all the scores he posts.   The thought is that he always seems to do well at our home club but on his GHIN there are a lot of scores from other courses that are, of course, higher.   Even with dropping it to 8, instead of 10, of your last 20 scores he can push out a good local score in a short period of time.

The other thing is that the prior club pro pulled up his history of posting scores and concluded that no one could beat their handicap the way he does at tournaments.  I would think that someone eyeballing that would be better than software trying to make a guess. Our home course has good players with a big variance in the scores because it's so tight and unforgiving.   Some of them could be flagged.

He also has a reputation for cheating.   People paired with him on the weekly money games or tournaments routinely get told to watch him like a hawk in the woods because "he never loses a ball, if you know what I mean...."

Go to Cap Patrol and get a free trial, that will open your eyes!

On 4/27/2022 at 10:06 AM, jsgolfer said:

Was looking at our clubs website and ran across this article about a new software program we just started using, called Cap Patrol,  and was wondering if anyone has heard of this and has has it actually spotted sandbaggers, as it suggest?

 

This genius computer program is designed to spot sandbaggers

---

Cap Patrol is a new computer program using advanced statistics to distinguish between scores, with the goal of spotting sandbaggers.

 

Go to their website, set up a time to speak with George if you haven't already. Its not perfect but it works.

 

[klaugh]

On 4/28/2022 at 9:37 AM, bkuehn1952 said:

It appears one of the primary goals of Cap Patrol is to give cover to the Handicap Committee if they take action against an alleged sand bagger.  The Committee can use the Cap Patrol recommendation for support of any handicap adjustment.

If a Handicap Committee is doing their job, a sand bagger is fairly quickly noted. He/she will win a couple times but outstanding tournament play is hard to hide. The real problem is a Committee not stepping in.  Cap Patrol might give them the needed nudge.

What it does is give you hard data to confirm that a modification is needed. In many cases if you don't have good data how do you modify someone? Easier said than done...

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, klaugh said:

Yes, IMO, they have long ignored players showing up with the 'wrong index'. Either knowingly or unknowingly players are playing with the wrong index.

I don't know what that means, or how they could do much to prevent it in the face of people simply not following the Rules of Handicapping.

If you post the scores you're supposed to post, and follow the Rules of Handicapping, you have the "right index."

1 hour ago, klaugh said:

The USGA could have done what Cap Patrol has done or as they are about to do by creating a program that looks at a players current index, LHI (low handicap index) and the competition index to see if they are truly playing at an index that represents their demonstrated ability as per their rules of handicapping.

Cap Patrol, as I understand it, mostly enforces players posting scores. Yes, it points to outlier scores and does a few other things, but… a handicap committee can do that sort of thing a little bit, too. Cap Patrol's benefits seem to be the automation of some of these things.

1 hour ago, klaugh said:

Go to their website, set up a time to speak with George if you haven't already. Its not perfect but it works.

What's your angle here? You've only posted in this topic. Do you work for Cap Patrol? Are you a golfer who has been burned by someone with the "wrong index"? What's the story? You're not in trouble or anything, but I am curious given your posting.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, klaugh said:

Yep, still waiting to see what the USGA Guidelines say, that is due out in December. About time the USGA put something into GHIN that address's the issue they have long ignored. The only challenge will be that this might/will bring 'human bias' into the decision making process. Whereas Cap Patrol takes the human element out of the process.

 

Cap Patrol has never taken the Committee's judgement out of the process, if I understand correctly, it simply automated a portion of the number-crunching.  Thats valuable assistance, for sure, but number-crunching should never control, it should merely inform the humans making the decisions.

[jsgolfer]

1 hour ago, klaugh said:

1 hour ago, klaugh said:

Go to Cap Patrol and get a free trial, that will open your eyes!

Go to their website, set up a time to speak with George if you haven't already. Its not perfect but it works.

Dude, I know it’s hard to read all previous posts, but my club uses this already. My other post was from a year ago.

And do you get some monetary gain from pushing cap patrol. I’m a hack playing golf, but as an engineer, I’d love to see how the algorithm works.

[klaugh]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Cap Patrol has never taken the Committee's judgement out of the process, if I understand correctly, it simply automated a portion of the number-crunching.  Thats valuable assistance, for sure, but number-crunching should never control, it should merely inform the humans making the decisions.

it does and it seems to work, yes the HC makes the final call but CP makes the decision easy.

53 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

Dude, I know it’s hard to read all previous posts, but my club uses this already. My other post was from a year ago.

And do you get some monetary gain from pushing cap patrol. I’m a hack playing golf, but as an engineer, I’d love to see how the algorithm works.

So yes, I saw it was LY. Does you club like it? Or do you get push back from those who have been modified? Ours does and the ones who don't like it are those who have been modified. 

No $ for me or anyone that I know of, just someone who like you would love to see how the forumulas work. It works, it's not 100% but it's far better than relying on GHIN for fair current indexes. Long been a proponet of everyone playing with fair and honest indexes, tired of the BS that goes on at events and pro am's, in this day and age there is no reason honest indexes can't be calculated for everyone.  CP does a good job of it, that's all...

 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, klaugh said:

it's far better than relying on GHIN for fair current indexes. Long been a proponet of everyone playing with fair and honest indexes,

You still haven't explained this.

[klaugh]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I don't know what that means, or how they could do much to prevent it in the face of people simply not following the Rules of Handicapping.

If you post the scores you're supposed to post, and follow the Rules of Handicapping, you have the "right index."

Cap Patrol, as I understand it, mostly enforces players posting scores. Yes, it points to outlier scores and does a few other things, but… a handicap committee can do that sort of thing a little bit, too. Cap Patrol's benefits seem to be the automation of some of these things.

What's your angle here? You've only posted in this topic. Do you work for Cap Patrol? Are you a golfer who has been burned by someone with the "wrong index"? What's the story? You're not in trouble or anything, but I am curious given your posting.

Tired of people showing up in events and pro am's with BS indexes, that's all. Don't work for CP but think they are on the right track. Glad the USGA & GHIN are finally going to take action. We'll see if they can figure it out.  I hope they have.  Fact is we are all golfers who have been burned, it happens all the time, that is the story. Just a beliver that in this day and age, with all the data and stats available events can be run with everyone playing with a fair index, its that simple. 

[iacas]

Just now, klaugh said:

Tired of people showing up in events and pro am's with BS indexes, that's all.

Explain this. What's a "BS index" and how do people get one if they follow the Rules of Handicapping? Even with Cap Patrol, people can still submit false scores, or not post everything, or whatever. No?

1 minute ago, klaugh said:

Glad the USGA & GHIN are finally going to take action.

What's stopping clubs and committees from having taken action before? The USGA isn't going to be doing anything here except giving more tools to the actual committees. They can't; they're not on the tee, at the club, overseeing everything at that level.

2 minutes ago, klaugh said:

Fact is we are all golfers who have been burned

You seem pretty sour about it all.

I also think you're pinning your hopes on something that likely won't eliminate all that you seem to think is wrong with the handicapping system.

It's still a human-based system, that relies on human beings following the rules and acting with honesty. And, for better or worse, there are a small minority out there who like to game the system(s).

[klaugh]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Explain this. What's a "BS index" and how do people get one if they follow the Rules of Handicapping? Even with Cap Patrol, people can still submit false scores, or not post everything, or whatever. No?

What's stopping clubs and committees from having taken action before? The USGA isn't going to be doing anything here except giving more tools to the actual committees. They can't; they're not on the tee, at the club, overseeing everything at that level.

You seem pretty sour about it all.

Not sour, just want people to play events with fair indexes, it's that simple. Is that hard to ask for?

Most players are honest and follow the rules but your a pro, you know there are plenty of players who game the system and the are not following the rules, posting false scores, not posting, posting wrong tee's, etc...  Only peer review can stop this and very few members are willing to speak up agains another member. 

What would you do if you know someone shows up to an event with a 15 index and knowingly plays to a 9? Just because your card says you are a 15 doesn't mean that is the truth. You know it happens way to often... What would you do if you played with 4 of your members in a pro am, won the event and then found out your 4 members never bothered to post their winning scores?

Nothing stopping HC's but unless they have either had data or solid information from peers it won't happen at most clubs.  Some clubs may haul members in and whack them but most won't.

CP finally levels the field, I hope the new USGA will also help and yes, nothing is 100% but at least it's a move in the right direction. 

 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, klaugh said:

Not sour, just want people to play events with fair indexes, it's that simple. Is that hard to ask for?

I think you are over-estimating how many players are sandbagging. I think you're sour about being beaten in net events.

4 minutes ago, klaugh said:

Most players are honest and follow the rules but your a pro, you know there are plenty of players who game the system and the are not following the rules, posting false scores, not posting, posting wrong tee's, etc...  Only peer review can stop this and very few members are willing to speak up agains another member.

Sorry to have to tell you… Cap Patrol doesn't guarantee this goes away. The system can still be gamed by a minority. You're almost always going to have these issues.

4 minutes ago, klaugh said:

What would you do if you know someone shows up to an event with a 15 index and knowingly plays to a 9?

Decide to play or not. It's not something I worry about, to be honest… I'm a professional, and so I don't really care about playing net events.

4 minutes ago, klaugh said:

Just because your card says you are a 15 doesn't mean that is the truth. You know it happens way to often... What would you do if you played with 4 of your members in a pro am, won the event and then found out your 4 members never bothered to post their winning scores?

To be honest… I don't really care.

4 minutes ago, klaugh said:

Nothing stopping HC's but unless they have either had data or solid information from peers it won't happen at most clubs. Some clubs may haul members in and whack them but most won't.

Cap Patrol and whatever the USGA does may give them more info, but they still have to a) do something, and b) rely on people to be honest and post accurately.

4 minutes ago, klaugh said:

CP finally levels the field, I hope the new USGA will also help and yes, nothing is 100% but at least it's a move in the right direction.

I think you're going to be disappointed.

Welcome to TST. Consider posting in other topics. There's a lot here.

[klaugh]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think you are over-estimating how many players are sandbagging. I think you're sour about being beaten in net events.

Sorry to have to tell you… Cap Patrol doesn't guarantee this goes away. The system can still be gamed by a minority. You're almost always going to have these issues.

Decide to play or not. It's not something I worry about, to be honest… I'm a professional, and so I don't really care about playing net events.

To be honest… I don't really care.

Cap Patrol and whatever the USGA does may give them more info, but they still have to a) do something, and b) rely on people to be honest and post accurately.

I think you're going to be disappointed.

Welcome to TST. Consider posting in other topics. There's a lot here.

No surprise, you play lowest score wins, you don't have to deal with net play and you may not fully understand what the net players deal with just as most net players don't understand your world of stroke play.  I've done both so I've delt with both sides for many years. Yes, no system is a guarantee, it will never go away, nothing is perfect.  One does not know just how much people are gaming the systems. My guest about 7-10%...  Not sour, not disappointed in the 'system', just dissapointed in people, whatever %, that have to be that way.  Just stirring the pot on this subject that few are willing to address... Good luck with your biz in Erie, hope your snow tires are ready.

[StuM]

23 minutes ago, klaugh said:

My guest about 7-10%...

I have no data to contradict your statement but I personally doubt it is anywhere near 7-10%.  Of the golfers I know that do post HCP none of them game the system.

Sure, there have always been a few bad apples, but I doubt it is anywhere near this many.