Cap Patrol - Handicap Evaluation

[jsgolfer]

Was looking at our clubs website and ran across this article about a new software program we just started using, called Cap Patrol,  and was wondering if anyone has heard of this and has has it actually spotted sandbaggers, as it suggest?

 

This genius computer program is designed to spot sandbaggers

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Cap Patrol is a new computer program using advanced statistics to distinguish between scores, with the goal of spotting sandbaggers.

 

[iacas]

The example they gave wasn't a good one. The handicap isn't an average. The 75 would count, the 100 would not.

But… you could probably do something like this. Just look at the rounds, consider other rounds shot that day, tag which rounds are which (self-entered, entered by a tournament committee, whatever), and so on…

[Darkfrog]

Couldn't sandbaggers just not submit a good score, and manipulate their handicap by not giving "genius" computer program data to analyze?

[ChetlovesMer]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

The example they gave wasn't a good one. The handicap isn't an average. The 75 would count, the 100 would not.

That confused me. 

The software might be good. The article is poorly written. 

[imsys0042]

We have someone at my local club who is absolutely notorious for being a sandbagger.   And he loves it.  He'll take your money and smile when you say anything about it.   People are trying to verify if he actually plays all the scores he posts.   The thought is that he always seems to do well at our home club but on his GHIN there are a lot of scores from other courses that are, of course, higher.   Even with dropping it to 8, instead of 10, of your last 20 scores he can push out a good local score in a short period of time.

The other thing is that the prior club pro pulled up his history of posting scores and concluded that no one could beat their handicap the way he does at tournaments.  I would think that someone eyeballing that would be better than software trying to make a guess. Our home course has good players with a big variance in the scores because it's so tight and unforgiving.   Some of them could be flagged.

He also has a reputation for cheating.   People paired with him on the weekly money games or tournaments routinely get told to watch him like a hawk in the woods because "he never loses a ball, if you know what I mean...."

Edited April 27, 2022 by imsys0042

[iacas]

7 hours ago, imsys0042 said:

 I would think that someone eyeballing that would be better than software trying to make a guess.

That's closer to the opposite of the truth. The software isn't "making a guess." It's following a set of rules, an algorithm. The biggest error there is that… a human made the algorithm.

[Zippo]

8 hours ago, imsys0042 said:

We have someone at my local club who is absolutely notorious for being a sandbagger.   And he loves it.  He'll take your money and smile when you say anything about it.

If he's "notorious for being a sandbagger" I think it would be pretty dumb to play him for money.

[bkuehn1952]

It appears one of the primary goals of Cap Patrol is to give cover to the Handicap Committee if they take action against an alleged sand bagger.  The Committee can use the Cap Patrol recommendation for support of any handicap adjustment.

If a Handicap Committee is doing their job, a sand bagger is fairly quickly noted. He/she will win a couple times but outstanding tournament play is hard to hide. The real problem is a Committee not stepping in.  Cap Patrol might give them the needed nudge.

[imsys0042]

On 4/27/2022 at 9:13 PM, Zippo said:

If he's "notorious for being a sandbagger" I think it would be pretty dumb to play him for money.

It’s come up a lot, but they won’t institute tournament handicaps and they won’t restrict him.   He pays his golf association dues and that gets him into tournaments that pay money.  Weekly games are simply paying your money and playing.  He’d have to be banned.  

He even has a pat answer.  He has told people that he just knows how to play our course because it’s his home course, and all those other scores at different courses are higher because he “doesn’t know the course”.

 

[mohearn]

On 4/27/2022 at 12:43 PM, imsys0042 said:

The other thing is that the prior club pro pulled up his history of posting scores and concluded that no one could beat their handicap the way he does at tournaments.  I would think that someone eyeballing that would be better than software trying to make a guess. Our home course has good players with a big variance in the scores because it's so tight and unforgiving.   Some of them could be flagged.

He also has a reputation for cheating.   People paired with him on the weekly money games or tournaments routinely get told to watch him like a hawk in the woods because "he never loses a ball, if you know what I mean...."

Some people view rules differently. Meaning they will try to get away with anything.

I remember reading something about that software, and couldn't help think "wow, shoulda thought of that!"  Pretty sure that if someone's routinely blowing away their handicap, the software would give data and percentages etc allowing a discussion to take place with the offender, armed with data/backup.

But unfortunately you're stuck, nobody's willing to address it, so the bad guy get's away with it.  Not sure how I'd handle it either, honestly. Maybe catch him cheating, somehow...

 

[jsgolfer]

So I got a call from the Golf Committee chair yesterday and he told me I got flagged by the software.  The trigger he said is playing .4 better than your index in tournament rounds (which doesn't seem like much).  At the time they ran the numbers, I was a 6.4 Index and software said I should be reduced to a 6.0, and both indexes are a 6 HC at my home course.  I really need to figure out how to sandbag better.

So I checked my tournament scores on GHIN, 17 total, and my average differential was 8.9, and even if you took the best 8 out of the scores like a normal HC, it is a 6.7 average differential.  So I'm really curious what data they used and how the algorithm flagged me.  Maybe I'm missing something. 

[DaveP043]

33 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

So I got a call from the Golf Committee chair yesterday and he told me I got flagged by the software.  The trigger he said is playing .4 better than your index in tournament rounds (which doesn't seem like much).  At the time they ran the numbers, I was a 6.4 Index and software said I should be reduced to a 6.0, and both indexes are a 6 HC at my home course.  I really need to figure out how to sandbag better.

So I checked my tournament scores on GHIN, 17 total, and my average differential was 8.9, and even if you took the best 8 out of the scores like a normal HC, it is a 6.7 average differential.  So I'm really curious what data they used and how the algorithm flagged me.  Maybe I'm missing something. 

To me, this is one of the problems with reliance on computer evaluations, some people will rely on the computerized evaluations without really understanding how the algorithms are set up.   The program certainly can look for and identify anomalous data, but actions should be based on human evaluations of that same data.  In your shoes, I'd ask for a face to face meeting, where you can see exactly what the Committee is seeing, and compare it with your own research.

[jsgolfer]

5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

To me, this is one of the problems with reliance on computer evaluations, some people will rely on the computerized evaluations without really understanding how the algorithms are set up.   The program certainly can look for and identify anomalous data, but actions should be based on human evaluations of that same data.  In your shoes, I'd ask for a face to face meeting, where you can see exactly what the Committee is seeing, and compare it with your own research.

He told me he'd send me the data they used.  They aren't talking about reducing my HC yet, but that I'm on a watch list (double secret probation).

[GolfLug]

1 hour ago, jsgolfer said:

He told me he'd send me the data they used.  They aren't talking about reducing my HC yet, but that I'm on a watch list (double secret probation).

Jeez.. ha ha.

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

To me, this is one of the problems with reliance on computer evaluations, some people will rely on the computerized evaluations without really understanding how the algorithms are set up.   

Interns.. pfft. 

[bkuehn1952]

On 5/12/2022 at 8:50 AM, jsgolfer said:

So I checked my tournament scores on GHIN, 17 total, ... if you took the best 8 out of the scores like a normal HC, it is a 6.7 average differential.  So I'm really curious what data they used and how the algorithm flagged me.  Maybe I'm missing something. 

With 17 scores, the GHIN handicap formula would use the 6 best differentials (not 8).  If the program is comparing your GHIN index versus a Competition Index (using just the 17 "C" scores), they may have seen a slight difference, which prompted the inquiry.  Frankly, as you pointed out, dropping you from 6.4 to 6.0 doesn't make a whole lot of difference and really is not called for.

[jsgolfer]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:13 PM, bkuehn1952 said:

With 17 scores, the GHIN handicap formula would use the 6 best differentials (not 8).  If the program is comparing your GHIN index versus a Competition Index (using just the 17 "C" scores), they may have seen a slight difference, which prompted the inquiry.  Frankly, as you pointed out, dropping you from 6.4 to 6.0 doesn't make a whole lot of difference and really is not called for.

Come to find out they track data over two years, and between 2019-2020, I was struggling mightily with my game, and in the late summer 2020, I started playing much better and did really well in a bunch of tournaments before my HC corrected to where it is now.  The 2020 tournament scores will drop off over the year, and I should be of list. Unless I do well in more tournaments.

[Roger Yoder]

My club recently adopted Cap Patrol. My wife was flagged and had her index adjusted 2 strokes. She was flagged for standing on the podium too many times. Her potential index was above her current index. If you look at her index and score shot for every tournament selected for the past 24 months, she was at or above her index. Over 90% of our tournaments are team events. They chose 10 tournaments mostly team events and one of which was a charity scramble format with mulligans. She only played in 1 individual format tournament and she shot well above her index. She was flagged because of her partners performance in team events…they carried her to the podium. There should be a sanity check for situations like hers. The Committee is creating a toxic environment. We are a private club in Bluffton, SC but it is not a serious tournament club. We are all here for fun.

[saevel25]

Is the era of sandbagging over when using USGA handicaps! Could this software pose more issues due to the quality of the data being provided? Example, GHIN asks you if you put in a home versus away for a score. What if someone just puts home for every course they play? 

How to catch a sandbagger | Golf News and Tour Information | GolfDigest.com

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A look at the computer algorithm that has tournament cheats on the run.

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The algorithm-based software program syncs with the U.S. Golf Association’s Golf Handicap Information Network (GHIN) and course tee sheets and uses 43 data points over five primary criteria: Handicap Index during the past 12 months, home scores versus away scores, potential of the player, percentage of scores turned in and tournament finishes. Cap Patrol puts those numbers in a data blender and then recommends which handicaps need to be adjusted (and by how many strokes), as well as who to keep an eye on and who to leave alone.

I might have an issue with this statement here...

"Golfers playing in a normal number of events (defined as eight during a two-year period) should place first no more than once and may have one other high finish, such as fourth place, in that eight-event span. Anything beyond that is not statistically reasonable."

Just because, it will be detrimental to those who are improving their golf game. What if someone starts a year off playing at a 15 handicap. Works their butt off, and constantly improves, dropping to a 5 handicap over the next two years. If they play in tournaments, their handicap should go down, but it will not catch up to the rate they are improving, and they could very likely finish high in a lot of tournaments. Maybe the program will flag it and an adjustment would be made.

Overall, I think I like the program.