Course Administrators and the Rules

[reidsou]

Wondering about other's experience with course administrators. Do they promote the rules of golf? Should we expect them to? 

Background: I belong to a golf club that organizes tournaments at a municipal course. Our club is trying to popularize and enforce the rules of golf in our events, but the golf course staff is not on the same page.

For example,  the course manager just sent an email to our club suggesting we should lift, clean, and place throughout the general area year round, citing allegedly terrible course conditions and lack of staff. The conditions are the same as the other public courses in our area.  

Also, the greenskeeper has refused to mark GUR or to allow our club volunteers to do it. Not sure why,  i think because he believes it is unattractive. He suggested we create a local rule essentially allowing players to decide for themselves what is GUR. 

To me,  this is not appropriate for administrators of a golf course. But perhaps financial concerns are more important than the rules? 

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, reidsou said:

To me,  this is not appropriate for administrators of a golf course. But perhaps financial concerns are more important than the rules? 

Uhhhh, yes.

And for your tournaments, simply create your Committee and set the rules as you want them to be for the event(s).

[reidsou]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Uhhhh, yes.

And for your tournaments, simply create your Committee and set the rules as you want them to be for the event(s).

Totally agree. And we are doing that. The problem is that we have a set of members who do not want to follow the rules (simplifying) and our committee is being undermined by the course professionals. Curious about other's experience that might help us win this ongoing argument.  

[iacas]

Just now, reidsou said:

The problem is that we have a set of members who do not want to follow the rules (simplifying) and our committee is being undermined by the course professionals.

Penalize or disqualify them. The course staff aren't on the Committee.

[reidsou]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Penalize or disqualify them. The course staff aren't on the Committee.

We can do that in an individual event.  The question is more about the ongoing debate within our club about what our local rules will be. What support should we demand and expect from the staff for the actual rules? Surely others have experience with this tension between business(?) and the rules? 

[bkuehn1952]

On 6/28/2024 at 7:49 PM, reidsou said:

We can do that in an individual event.  The question is more about the ongoing debate within our club about what our local rules will be. What support should we demand and expect from the staff for the actual rules? Surely others have experience with this tension between business(?) and the rules? 

Maybe approach the superintendent and suggest you experiment by marking 1 or 2 holes with acceptable white marking paint. I think there are versions for turf and others for pavement. See how it looks and determine whether other players like it or hate it.

I don’t think a public access course owes a group any special support. At the same time, a course shouldn’t dismiss out of hand an offer to properly mark the course.

 

[gbogey]

My experience is that even for a well maintained private course it is difficult to keep up with GUR unless it's for a special event like a club championship or member-guest. I've seen the competition organizers issue instructions for how to identify GUR and leave it up to the groups to police themselves appropriately.

Lift, clean and place - don't get me started. I played one year in a competition group where due to wet conditions every round was lift, clean, and place, except it was allowed EVERYWHERE, not just in the fairways. I finally complained to the director that good players were being penalized because guys were hitting it into really thick fescue only to LCP into a playable lies. So they the changed the rules for last couple of events. Long story short is that I won my flight for the year by winning the tour championship and I won't forget hearing my two main competitors moan out load about not being able to clean their ball in the rough. To paraphrase Pete Dye, "if you want to complain about playing out of the rough, don't hit it there."

[Vinsk]

59 minutes ago, gbogey said:

because guys were hitting it into really thick fescue only to LCP back into a playable lies

Well that’s not how it’s supposed to work right? It’s not LCP ( improve your lie). They’re supposed to place it back as close as possible to its original position. 

[gbogey]

Yes, of course, but in one specific example, the ball was buried in the fescue to the point where your only choice was to take an unplayable or try to hack hard and get it into the rough/fairway but no control (and obviously a hack could easily leave it in the fescue). But the individual was allowed to place the ball within one club length into a playable spot where he was able to get a wedge onto the green and then two putt for bogey, when he should have had at least a double or triple. I saw this happen to this player three times in one round, where LCP turned a probable double/triple into a bogey. But to be clear, the rules of that competition allowed it. But whenever the pros play LCP, it is always only from the fairways.

BTW, I should add that my club has adopted LCP from the fairway whenever conditions indicate cart path only.

Edited October 17 by gbogey
grammer / add on

[reidsou]

11 hours ago, gbogey said:

Yes, of course, but in one specific example, the ball was buried in the fescue to the point where your only choice was to take an unplayable or try to hack hard and get it into the rough/fairway but no control (and obviously a hack could easily leave it in the fescue). But the individual was allowed to place the ball within one club length into a playable spot where he was able to get a wedge onto the green and then two putt for bogey, when he should have had at least a double or triple. I saw this happen to this player three times in one round, where LCP turned a probable double/triple into a bogey. But to be clear, the rules of that competition allowed it. But whenever the pros play LCP, it is always only from the fairways.

Thanks for the reply, but this is off topic. The posted question is about the whether we should expect course administrators to promote the rules of golf. 

LCP was just an example. (About that example, see Committee Procedures model local rules 8E-2 and 8E-3. Many clubs improperly combine these two rules, allowing LCP everywhere.)

[reidsou]

15 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Maybe approach the superintendent and suggest you experiment by marking 1 or 2 holes with acceptable white marking paint. I think there are versions for turf and others for pavement. See how it looks and determine whether other players like it or hate it.

I don’t think a public access course owes a group any special support. At the same time, a course shouldn’t dismiss out of hand an offer to properly mark the course.

 

Great suggestion. Unfortunately, we did that and our offer was rejected. 

Regarding owing special support. Our experience has shown you are right, as management has not helped us promote the rules of golf.  My (apparently unrealistic) thought is that should not be considered "special support" as they are running a golf course. 

[gbogey]

5 hours ago, reidsou said:

Thanks for the reply, but this is off topic. The posted question is about the whether we should expect course administrators to promote the rules of golf. 

LCP was just an example. (About that example, see Committee Procedures model local rules 8E-2 and 8E-3. Many clubs improperly combine these two rules, allowing LCP everywhere.)

In a nutshell at a municipal facility, no. Perhaps they might mark GUR for your club championship, but they are going to focus on providing a facility for the public to use and enjoy. Whether they play by the rules is up to the player.

Hopefully they provide some sort of outreach program to grow the game, which typically includes teaching the rules of golf.

[mcanadiens]

Especially with a muni course, I wouldn't expect too much. 

At least in my limited experience, it was up to my men's association leadership to determine things like GUR or LCP. Old Kittyhawk was a wild and wooly place. There was one year that we were allowed to rake and place in the bunkers. As much to avoid damaging our clubs on the rocks as much as anything else.  

In the few cases where GUR wasn't already marked by the course, the Association guys would mark it themselves before one of our events. The course never gave them any grief over that.  

It does seem a bit odd that a club manager would make a suggestion as he did in @reidsou's case.  They generally let our guys run their own show.