Pulling Irons, Slicing Driver

[SlicingDyson]

Hey there,

Relatively new to golf! Info that may or may not be helpful: I'm generally right handed but golf, play hockey and lacrosse lefty. Was a switch hitter in baseball. I always felt like my right hand did most of the "directing" in stick/club sports, even fishing. Collegiate athlete, in good shape.

My iron game is consistent with mostly straight or slight pull.  My grip is generally neutral, but with my longest iron (5i) I find that I have to strengthen it a bit or I will push the ball. My swing path is mostly straight, but the longer the club the more I tend to go from outside to inside. My stock yardage on PW is about 120 yard carry, with my 5i just under 200. Certainly haven't mastered everything but there's really nothing here that I complain about. 

Here's the problem: my Driver. It's awful. Giant push slices. I've tried different ball placements and find that I can hit it with less of a slice if the ball is closer to center, vs forward in my stance. If I swing 10% then I can get it straight. Anything over 50% and it starts going wild. 

I've tried a lot of different things and it seems to help for about 5 shots. I think to myself that I've finally figured it out. Then it disappears! Wide stance, narrow stance, straight legs, deep squat, high back swing, shallow back swing. I even gripped the club like a baseball bat and pretended I was swinging at a low and outside fastball. The most success I've had is by strengthening my grip an absurd amount. But I've found that this changes my swing considerably and I think it starts messing with my irons.

I feel comfortable with all my irons but when the driver is in my hands, it feels completely foreign. 

Oh, I have a 4hybrid that I just can't hit. I usually can't get it off the ground or just top it. If I make decent contact, it slices but not as wildly as the driver but it's not a serviceable club. 

Your input/guidance is greatly appreciated. I would love to be able to use my driver in a match!! 😵‍💫Thank you in advance.

[boogielicious]

I suggest you post your swing in the Members Swing Section so we can see. Pay attention to how you film your swing as recommended in the pinned thread.

[barooo]

Going to watch this since my average misses are the opposite, I tend to pull hook my driver and push my irons.  The hook is weak, the pushes feel solid.

[HitemHard]

I'm not an "official" instructor but I've been helping people for a few years now. I find that most beginners never get taught a proper concept of how the swing works. I also find that most people need a better understanding of what the arms and hands do before even working on the grip or the rest of the body. This is because what your concept of how the arms work through the downswing will dictate how strong or weak your grip must be. And if your arms work correctly then you can get away with a lot of variation in the lower body and still hit the ball decently.

This will be long by the way...

now...I get technical because...well...if you're writing it, you have to make it understandable. So let's understand the swing structure of the left or lead arm. The clubhead is controlled by the left hand, the left hand is controlled by the left wrist which is made up of the two bones of the forearm; the ulna closest to the pinky finger and the radius closest to the thumb. The forearm is attached to but can work independently of the humorous or upper arm which ends at the shoulder joint. That's the structure you are working with. Now how each section of that structure can work in different ways so let's talk about them starting at the upper arm.

You may have heard people use the term "external shoulder rotation." It's usually used in reference to the right arm but that's okay you need to understand it in the left arm as well. First off...that's not a correct term. The shoulder is a complex structure of three bones; the clavicle in the upper chest/neck area, the scapula or shoulder blade that glides across the back and the end of the humorous bone that is the upper arm. So when you hear that term what they really are saying is "external rotation of the humerus." A simple way to understand this is to think about arm wrestling. If you are arm wresting someone with your elbow on a table you are trying to force your opponents arm into external rotation while your upper arm would be internally rotating. If you are losing the wrestling match you will find that while your elbow stays in place, your forearm and hand will be pushed back behind the elbow as your humerus externally rotates. So in the golf swing we don't want to be the winner of the arm wrestling match... at any point in time! Both upper arms need to externally rotate. The right upper arm externally rotates in the backswing and stays in that position through impact or for some people just before but very close to impact. The left arm must externally rotate in the downswing from impact through the finish. Some people choose to set-up with both upper arms externally rotated...think elbows pointed at the hips or biceps up. Others will start with just the right arm in this position...some people describe it as the "giving blood" position. Others start with both elbows internally rotated...biceps facing inward toward each other. You can set-up whichever way feels best to you but in your backswing and downswing the upper arms MUST externally rotate.

Now back to the left arm...with which you should try to control the swing...and the forearm. The forearm is where most people get in trouble because it can rotate left or right no matter which orientation your upper arm is in...try it...it's just how the forearm is structured to work. And this is where you MUST make the decision as to how you want the forearms to work in order to choose how strong or weak your grip must be. Ben Hogan in his book 5 Lessons uses the terms supination and pronation. To illustrate it simply grab a club in your left hand and hold it out in front of you. Rotate your forearm to where your knuckles point to the sky (this is pronation) and then rotate your forearm the other way so that your knuckles point to the ground (this is supination). When your lead forearm is in pronation (knuckles up) the ulna will be on the left side of the radius. In supination (knuckles down the ulna rotates under the radius and the radius is now on the left side of the ulna. Very important that you relate this to the position of the ulna.

At the top of the backswing you should be in a position where you feel that the knuckles of the left hand are pointed to the sky. As you rotate your body open and your chest pulls your arms down and into impact you will need to be aware that your ulna stays on the left side of the radius as long as possible. This is the position instructors are trying to have you achieve by pulling the butt of the club into an invisible wall past your left leg while maintaining the 90 degree angle formed by the shaft and your forearm. You've probably seen or heard of that drill as we all have over the years. Now here is the IMPORTANT part that no one seems to ever speak of...what happens from there!?!

From that position...ulna on the left side of the radius, shaft and the forearm at a 90 degree angle, hands directly over the ball...you have two choices. 1) You can keep the ulna traveling toward the target on the left side of the radius and only release (unhinge) the wrists to lower the clubhead down into the ball or 2) while you unhinge your left wrist you can rotate your left forearm from the pronated position (knuckles up) to the supinated position (knuckles down) and let the ulna rotate under and eventually to the right side of the radius. If you choose to release the club with method 1 you will need a strong grip. The clubface will stay stable and square to the target throughout the swing but you probably will lose distance and have a very spinny ball flight. If you choose to release the club with method 2 you will probably require a much weaker grip as the clubhead will be less stable as it closes down coming into impact. This method requires more timing but results in more power through impact and usually more distance. You may also hook the ball if you start with too strong of a grip or a closed clubface at address. Method 2 is what most pros use but not all. Method 1 is what causes most people to hit weak, spinny slices and requires an unusually strong grip because with method 1 the left forearm has a tendency to open more coming into impact where the ulna stays in front of the radius too long. 
 

Here's the catch...you need to learn both releases. Release 1 is how you want to use your wedges when you want to make sure the bounce interacts with the turf or if you need to hit a cut from left to right around a tree. You'll get more height and more spin with release 1. Release 2 will let the leading edge tear through the turf taking a nice crisp divot and can be used to hook a ball from right to left.

Congratulations to anyone that read through all of this! I believe that once your brain understands precisely how it needs to control the different parts of your body it can do it repetitively on command. Your swing will repeat and not fall apart from day to day. Learn how you want to use your forearms and you can choose your grip and clubface position at address. Either method will work and both methods are used by the best players in the world for different shots.

[saevel25]

@HitemHard, The first thing that I am going to say is, "feel is not real". This has been proven true with video, and now systems like GEARS which can accurately measure and track the golf swing. A lot of what you said will likely not translate to the original poster unless they are fluent in biomechanics. This is the struggle with those who are technically knowledgeable trying to explain to people who have no knowledge of the subject. Talking in terms of external rotation, and supination, is all and good, but it does nothing to give a proper visual or is even relevant to someone who actually wants to fix their swing. I have been through many lessons with a great instructor, and watched good YouTube sources, and believe me they DUMB DOWN the technical aspects of the golf swing because I and the rest of us do not need it. 

That being said, 

On 12/12/2024 at 12:50 AM, HitemHard said:

The clubhead is controlled by the left hand,

I would disagree with this. It probably is dependent on the golfer. example, I am very right side dominant. So, I feel things much more in terms of right wrist angles. This means that I control the clubface by feeling the general position of my hands and my right hand. So, my existence disproves this statement as the only way to control the golf club. 

On 12/12/2024 at 12:50 AM, HitemHard said:

At the top of the backswing you should be in a position where you feel that the knuckles of the left hand are pointed to the sky. As you rotate your body open and your chest pulls your arms down and into impact you will need to be aware that your ulna stays on the left side of the radius as long as possible. This is the position instructors are trying to have you achieve by pulling the butt of the club into an invisible wall past your left leg while maintaining the 90 degree angle formed by the shaft and your forearm. You've probably seen or heard of that drill as we all have over the years. Now here is the IMPORTANT part that no one seems to ever speak of...what happens from there!?!

Yea, I am going to disagree here. 

First again, feel is not real. For some, the feel of the left hand pointed to the sky will produce a club position way out of position. For me, I had to feel like the back of my left hand faced away from my body. On video, this got the club in a good position. Again, feel is not real. 

I do not believe the body pulls the club through impact. PGA tour players get their hands down FAST from the top of the downswing. The hands need to accelerate to a high rate of speed before they start to slow down before the hands get through impact. This happens in a very short window. The hands are not passive. 

That all being said that entire post was pretty non-sensical to me. I think most people would struggle to understand it. 

To answer the OP's question. 

A slice and a pull are the same swing but with clubface control differences. If you square the face to the path, then you pull it. If you do not, then you slice it. 

The issue is a pathing issue. That can be caused by many things. As was posted above, having the OP start a My Swing thread, posting their swing would be more beneficial. 

[iacas]

On 12/12/2024 at 12:50 AM, HitemHard said:

This is the position instructors are trying to have you achieve by pulling the butt of the club into an invisible wall past your left leg while maintaining the 90 degree angle formed by the shaft and your forearm.

Hmmm, I think people would do well to move away from this kind of thinking. Specifically, two things:

• That we "pull" the butt of the club forward toward a wall anywhere near the front leg.
• That we "maintain" or "hold" the wrist angles.

Both of those are closer to the opposite of what we do in the golf swing.